So glad the community is demonizing this shitty behavior
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āLetās create a precision truck and over engineer the precision out of itā 
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Oh man I didnt know about all this, was gonna buy but definitely not anymore
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Happily supporting an American small business over here thatās pushed the sport to the point it is today.
Canāt blame someone for getting upset against someone else taking away business from them. Asking to have a part made, not liking the quoted price so deciding to have it outsourced and then continuing to ask for help developing it to sell to a dozen others while trying to undercut the original business is insane. Imagine doing this to any other business. Hey architect, Iām gonna hire a different firm can you give me more information on your design so I can make my own version and sell it for less?
Releasing the design files afterwards does nothing but show a lack of caring about the progress of our sport. We need more businesses to grow and make it for our sport/hobby than just one off group buy parts being made in small batches by a single part time maker. Keeping stock of products is very expensive and difficult for a business where as designing something and having a dozen made is far lower in risk and challenge. Designing things on the side and having them made is a world apart from running a full time fabrication business.
So what one sees as lack of innovation may just be the truth of growing slowly to keep the bills paid and the lights on.
Is this hub group buy a huge deal? Maybe not to you but when itās something taking opportunity away from your livelihood you might just get upset also.
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Well said @dskate
I believe that esk8 in general is very much so in its infancy.
Especially the esk8 race scene.
Yes itās been around but I donāt think long enough to where people should be expecting absolute perfection.
Shit thatās the reason why the forums exist
We are all trying to figure this stuff out.
Not all of us are absolute masters at everything.
I visited Moe last night to pick some bushings up & spoke with him for a little bit. I believe most of the interpretation on behalf of him (on the forums) might be perceived wrongly.
He is not stopping improvement by any means
He is working within his budget and with experience he has at hand.
Itās really just a one man show & itās pretty darn impressive if you ask me as far as heās got.
Considering he might not have all the bases covered in every aspect of his boards.
Collectively I think denying his efforts is rather unfair.
I believe heās clearly making efforts to make
Necessary strides in getting there.
He could easily close his doors at SRB and go make a shit load of money being a lineman as he once was.
But squashing his business preemptively and making it seem like heās not making an effort to actively improve the progression of his race boards / racing scene is absolutely delusional.
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I want to say that @Ac53n efforts in showcasing his designs as-well as organizing a group buy to make it happen so that other people can enjoy very much shows a promising effort that I am happy to support.
His efforts needs to be recognized how it is clearly differentā¦ I do not believe this will take away from the SRB hub sales given itās proclaimed similarities
the level of engineering & time taken Tommy took is great & all of you should appreciate it. Itās step in the right direction competition or not.
the level of involvement in BOTH of these designs deserves to be recognized rather than to continue the a collective dispute.
It takes away from focus in both you and srbs progression aswell as other makers / designers who might be now hesitant to have even started making the leap.
^
(This in reference to starting to showcase / further advance esk8 āprogressionā if thatās even the right word for it.)
Bottom line is do what you are gonna do Tommy.
I whole heartily think your design might share a critical similarity for mechanical function yesā¦ but other than that itās differentā¦ I support you making it aswell as selling it!
Even if moe doesnāt like the fact that itās similar guess where buyers of your hubs will have to purchase tires from?
SRB.
So in a sense you can look at it like you are complementing each others work.
Either which way both of you guys are wildly respectable and I am stoked to see what both of you guys come up with.
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Except that what is happening is how the free market is supposed to work. If we donāt respect that we might as well just have communism. Competition in every industry is a good thing for the customer. Yes itās harder for the business to stay afloat in a competitive environment, because they need to simultaneously innovate on multiple fronts.
If someone sees opportunity for improvements and can actually deliver it, then thatās a win in my book for the customers.
I genuinely believe Moe is innovating in some ways, but he takes some time to bring in new ideas. And still hand machines stuff which is just not something very scalable, and that manufacturing process forces simple designs or huge time investments per part. Replicating Moeās hub design takes about 2 minutes in CAD, thatās the cold hard truth.
Furthermore I believe that @Ac53n 's hubs are a significantly better design than what Moe quoted for him. Itās single piece, you choose how much axle space you use, supports SR125 pattern also for his own pulleys, weight optimized around the MBS pattern and around the bearing block with FEA. Furthermore they arenāt hand machined but CNC machined which is a lot more scalable process that allows more complex designs to be made easily. I think it would be unfair to just undercut him with a direct copy, but this is not a direct copy, rather a different product with new features.
How someone finds justification to get hostile in public over another person making hubs years after his hub design went up for sale is beyond me. Thereās nothing novel about making hubs, the exact same designs existed already in other industries, including the design of the centering ring.
If anything, I think it will drive more BRP tire sales for Moe in the long run.
This isnāt happening preemptively though for the most part. Itās happening directly because of his behavior in public towards other smaller vendors every time some competition arises.
At the same time on the WTF and MLR he uses a copy of the Newbee 4gs gear drives to talk about double standards. Iām fine with that since it has notable improvements over the newbee drive (all steel gears). But using it takes away his credibility to criticize anyone for improving upon his hubs.
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@DINA_KATCH on the WTF platform will be Racing at esk8-con in the womenās division and likely within the top tiers of the pro division, according to her recent T-race Lap times.
Last Race season she qualified in the pro division esk8con 2024
and was the Electrify Racing League series points Champion in the production stock class with multiple wins and podiums.
Big mention what would have been, she was running in 3rd at TEF1 (a Big track race with straight away speeds of 68mphā 110kph put down by @HAIRYMANJACK ) when her battery dumped with 1/2 lap remaining. Tan Ke on Instagram: "Back in November. TEF1 race event in Winchester, CA. The track is nice!! Not far from where my parents live. Cool to hear the announcer mentioning our San Diego star racers @dina_katch, @electrivv and @gt_pevs"
Pics By James Hodgson
WTF has a 47mph top speed on roughly 14000watts awd. It uses the Drop-Spine long rod 3-link steering Lateral G-Turn Assist as does the SS-GTA and V-6.
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Dina is wildly fast. Looking forward to seeing what she can do at the con this year also.
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It probably will cause with the hubs Tommy designed, it opens up the possibility to run brpās on a lot more trucks without having to get longer axles. (some trucks will still have to get longer axles tho) The Stooge drive hub being so wide is one of the factors that hinders more people from running the hubs
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Would like to correct the record.
Last week we reported T-Race record breaking times. It was thankfully brought to attention that our track length was short. Here are the new record times from today with the correct length track.
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Our drive hub design is to optomize bearing load. Outside bearing as close to the load center of the wheel as possible.
Inside bearing as close to the gear or pulley load center. It is 100% the reason we run 70mm of spindle area on our hanger.
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What the fuck is this naming
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Considering what Dinnye said about SRB using appropriated Newbee drives with an improvement in the form of steel on steel gears I donāt think Moe gets the right to be all pissy and throw a fit when the same style of improvement is done to something he made. Hell, if anything I think he has less of a right to complain considering Tommyās hubs are a ground up redesign of the current SRB offering
Moe has repeatedly tried using his existing pedigree on the forum coupled with peoplesā brand loyalty to try and beat down both @Ean.esk8 and @Ac53n, how many creators have to withstand his abuse before we say that enough is enough?
I think that to call any of the new designs innovative is giving them much more credit than they deserve. I would argue theyāre iterative in that they are marginal improvements to what previous SRB releases offered but other than that they are just Moe maintaining the status quo. Using a top box, strapping a mtb deck to a superspine, or having a 4wd race board is far from innovative, theyāve all been done on the forum before, the only thing never before seen is that this time they came out of Moeās garage.
When Tommy made and ran a group buy for his own pulleys designed for radium core we didnāt see @Tony_Stark crying about being beat down, he actually took part in the thread.
I donāt think Moe previously having been a better actor makes him immune to criticism, taking that criticism and improving is how we move forward. What doesnāt push us forward is making unnecessary and dangerous changes (that stupid shared negative across a superspine frame bullshit) coupled with forcefully beating down the competition.
If SRB wants to wise up and start bringing something new to the table again then I welcome it, but if Moe canāt grow up and get his ego in check then I also welcome him and his brand fucking off into the sunset, just means more revenue that Iād happily slide towards Radium, Tito, and others.
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Gonna add to this, he actually helped me out with a couple questions i had RE the dimensions and sizing of the wheel core standard. Also, while i donāt think heās making parts anymore, it was BN that handled the manuacturing and assisted with comptibility with BN pressfits.
As for this, yes, a wider bearing spacing is better. However, through discussion with dinnye, Iāve ensured that my hubs fit a dual row bearing on the inside for those that have sufficient axle length and want to, and all of this while also retaining standard 22mm bearing spacing, to make parts sourcing easier should you want to use different axle diameters. I donāt want to force nonstandard components if i can help it.
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Both of those are awesome, if I ever decide to hop onto the BRP train for my duality build Iām 100 percent going to reach for your hubs!
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Actually you can have a double row and a regular bearing on the inside, with 3mm bearing sticking out of the hub, that can act as a centering feature for open gears. That was my plan anyways. Thatād give 50mm bearing spread in total, with 3 bearing rows on the inside which is pretty decent.
Outside bearings wear less in my experience mostly with very offset large tires. The centering ring allows for one normal bearing there only, but that should be fine.
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