Adaptation vs. Purpose Built, how it applies to ESK8

#1

Let’s talk about Adaptation vs. Purpose Built esk8 hardware.

By adaptation I mean taking parts that exist and “making” them work, true DIY. By purpose built I mean using a piece or pieces of hardware that is built specifically to perform a function specifically to esk8.

This comes from a discussion @Sender and I had a while back. Surprisingly, we didn’t agree on everything. This seems to be a question deeply rooted in personal preference. Then I included @zach & @BillGordon. There feedback is below.

A good example is an RC ESC vs. VESC. I think everyone will agree that the VESC platform wins out.

Another good example is Haya vs. the LY Evo. There’s is no clear winner there.

There’s a performance variable, most people never see the top of it on top shelf hardware. I mean, I respect the desire for quality gear, but sometimes the user/buyer is looking for bullet proof and assumes “really fast” is the same thing…it’s not.

I think we can better define the value of purpose built components (vs. adapted) by exploring performance metrics and how usage caps, how leaving a margin against potential usage, hence bulletproof and/or fast AF.

@Zach
Well to state the obvious, I think it’s very hardware specific.
But, I think for the most part, it comes to quality. Only the best of the best works for esk8, purpose built or not.

Another example. 3D printed enclosures. They can be designed and printed exclusively for an esk8, but due to the nature of the quality of the product, it’s normally not very suited for esk8 purposes.

I think thats what sets our boards apart from most prebuilts. High quality components, which also leads to higher component cost. But when done right, we have some pretty solid stuff, capable of incredible performance and reliable on a component level (ignoring electronics for that statement, we’ve seen plenty of DRV faults)

@BillGordon
PB gear also should come with vendors who are more accessible/approachable, and less SR type vendors who are doing us a favor by selling to us.

EXAMPLE:
ADAPTED: round motor shaft flat-spotted and glued
PURPOSE BUILT: keyway/d type shaft
ADAPTED: Paris truck profile
PURPOSE BUILT: square/hex profile

I don’t think we will come to a final conclusion on such a broad question, but we can discuss specific data and come to some conclusions about specific hardware.

What do you guys think?

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#2

giphy-downsized

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#3

Actually, today we use the mix of both options. Personally, I think that purpose built is the way to go, bc, obviously, adapted hardware is a relic has passed, when there was no specialized hardware. However, I like it this way. So, is we are talking about adaptation, cons are

  • It is way harder to make it look dissent, like on the quality pre-built board instead of shitty diy style
  • Also the way harder to combine all the components in the way they were not initially supposed to.

Pros:

  • True DIY leads to unique feel of riding, exterior and so on. This makes your board actually yours.
  • Maybe it is cheaper (in case you know what you choose to buy, otherwise you have to go over many incompatible parts = wasted money)
  • You grab lots of experience while doing that

Honestly, I use mix of both styles, my deck, RX/TX, enclosure, antispark are handcrafted because I wanted customization. But at the same time, motor plate, for example, is purpose built.

Just to give you an idea how it looks like:

image
image4032×3024 2.2 MB

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#4

There are plenty of purpose built trucks, typically cheap chinese whatever matches their rear truck. On the other hand there are lots of trucks, equally cheap or at least widespread enough that you can find them on the used market, with a long proven record in DH skateboarding that can be adapted, and considering how critical a truck failure is, this is a no brainer.

But then there are some purpose built adaptations like Boadnamics hangers that bridge the gap!

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#5

Not in my agenda to disrespect rc esc users but…
Pros:
Plug and play
Cons
Plug and play
Some have no config at all. Some have some config for those who have 300 hours to spend figuring out how to do it.
I have had both ( and used both) I know what I am talking about.
Haya…my experience so far has been flawless. Also Mathias is a nice guy. I can’t talk about ly evo right now (I am on it)
In general I want reliability over performance over aesthetics. We discussed this at the old forum didn’t we?
Well any turd with me on board will rock tha house cuz I’m hot smoking :sunglasses:

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#6

I tried so damn hard to read all 5 comments including original post but damn am I lazy or what!!

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#7

This depends on how in depth you look at the components with.

A motor plate made specifically to put motors on a set of regular trucks, you could say together, it is a purpose built thing. The truck was adapted, but how much of the component as a whole do you break down? Would you say the DRV chip was “adapted” into VESC?

Also if you look at it from an in depth level, both an RC ESC and VESC do the same job, aka spin a motor using input from a user. So in this view, neither is “adapted”, they are both used for their purpose, to spin a motor. Sure the RC ESC was originally “made” to run a RC car, but that is giving it a purpose, when the component itself knows no better of what it is installed in, all it knows is to take information from a controller and give appropriate power to the motor it’s connected to.

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#8

Sterling addition. Flawless. Now I want a Cisco T-Shirt even more.

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#9

I knew from the beginning this was going to be a difficult topic to pin down. I’ve been hesitating on it for a month.

In a practical sense (@BluPenguin :grin:) I think we can limit the comparisons to specific components or entire esk8’s.

I mean something like R/C ESCs vs VESC 4.12 derivatives or the Hummie deck vs LY Evo. In both cases I think there purpose built product findings better for it purposes and is a better value.

You can also go the other way, my Beast Mode build vs the LaCroix Nazare. I built Beast Mode, a clear example of adaptation and I own a Lonestar, a clear example of purpose built. I’m very partial to my build, obviously, but I almost always grab the Lonestar when I’m headed out for a ride. I feel like that defines, at least IMHO, that the Lonestar is superior.

What other examples of this type of comparison can you guys site?

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#10

Pretty sure if you ask @MoeStooge about Mamba XLX on 8S vs VESC on 12S for his purposes, the former will win (and has been). Apparently it’s as adjustable on throttle and brake curves as VESC too.

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#11

That’s a good point. For race boards, maybe the VESC is not a clear winner. That’s the kind if thing I’m looking for, demonstrable instances that counter what the accepted public opinion is.

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#12

IMO it’s all about fit for purpose, whether that means you had to get it purpose made for esk8, or whether it’s off the shelf (from related or unrelated industries), that’s what DIY is about. Innovation doesn’t just mean making new stuff, repurposed things can also be innovative.

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#13

Another interesting component to all of this is the question of whether purpose built kills the soul of DIY in any way. With each quarter, things that were once hard become easier and the next step will be gear like batteries and BMS combos that anyone can put together like legos.

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#14

Another very good point.

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#15

There will always be vendors and builders in this space, but that doesn’t take away from it at all. Some create brand new things, some specialise in electronics, others decks, still others in trucks, etc.

Each adds what they can for the betterment of esk8, then the builders use that and sometimes even in ways unintended. In doing that everyone involved learn and become part of the bigger picture.

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#16

You guys are all over the place. Started as made for esk8 vs made to work for esk8, now were back to DIY or not
For the initial discussion, esk8 specific components are absolutely superior. However, having said that, creating them is very expensive. On the deck discussion: The haya is an esk8 specific deck, but to make it affordable, there are few options. For most long board manufacturers producing 100x the volume, the manufacturing processes would substantially slow down production – not to mention the fact that esk8 probably makes up less than 10% of landyachtz total sales.
We are seeing big increases in esk8 specific components – and thats a very good thing.

For the DIY bought and assembled vs true DIY – look, I recommend DIY to people for three reasons. 1) component options, namely deck, trucks, wheels. 2) Brakes- being able to configure the brakes for your skill level, weight, speeds, wheel diameter etc is an absolute must in my opinion. I wont buy a pre-built again for this reason. 3) Performance

There is absolutely a big difference between a guy/girl that buys and just assembles everything and a guy/girl who has meticulously been over their entire board. Don’t get me wrong, we’re at a point where a bought-and-assembled DIY is a damn nice piece: think eboosted deck, battery, enclosure + assembled drive train for ex. However, thats nothing compared to a board built by someone with the experience and skill set to tackle every inch of the board. These are the people on their third prototype of half the components on the board because they keep improving as they ride it. Bought components might fit on the deck together, but it doesn’t mean their design best maximizes their input to the whole system. That’s the one thing that sets the true enthusiasts apart from the rest of the builders in every DIY [insert any hobby here] forum or community, their attention to detail.

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#17

I’ve already demonstrated one case where that’s not true.

#18

nothing in a vesc is esk8 specific…

#19

esk8 specific components are only as good as how it was designed and who made it. I can go press an esk8 specific deck right now and I’ll assure you it will be utter shit because I have no idea how to press decks. On the other hand I can assemble electronics and machine parts with non-esk8 specific things and it could be better than anything available “for the esk8 market”.

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#20

your example was fit for purpose.

Components specifically designed for esk8 would be superior - we have very few true components like that. Thats designing specifically for the abuse, vibrations, range, features etc that an esk8 goes through. IMO, we dont have a single truck on the market that fits that bill.