Why do we want more balancing current from a BMS?

Active balancing is not feasible/sensible for Light Eletric Vehicle (LEV) use price, board size or need wise. It’s more suitable for industrial + grid-scale applications. These systems are capable of balancing currents of up to 10s of Amps.

On the FlexiBMS Lite you can set balancing to be enabled outside of charging/charger being connected, which I would generally recommend doing if you’re trying to balance a heavily unbalanced pack. Unless you can leave the charger connected.

The way the balancing logic in the Lite works, is that there is a configurable voltage that a cell needs to be over before it’s allowed to be balanced. Then there is the allowed cell difference voltage (delta-V), which is compared to the lowest cell in the pack.

As an example. 4S pack: 10mV allowed cellV difference, balanceVoltage 4.000V

  1. 3.980V
  2. 3.995V
  3. 4.000V
  4. 4.010V

Cells 2, 3 and 4 need balancing as they are not within the allowed cell difference from the lowest cell + allowed difference → 3.980V + 0.010V = 3.990V. Only cells 3 and 4 are allowed to balance at this time as they are equal or over the balanceVoltage of 4.000V.
When the pack is charged, then cell 2 would also go over 4.000V and start being balanced towards the cell 1 until it’s within it’s the cellV difference from it.

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Yes, the 1.2 amp one is not applicable, but the 5amp one is functional.
And the best part of them is, they ALWAYS work, according to disparity. So, it doesnt balance AS YOU CHARGE. And doesnt waste electricity.

The company I work for make packs of 180Ah per parallell group (modular system, build as you like). Balance current per P-group is around 500mA. So far no problems :smile:

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How many cells per p-group for that 180Ah?

People want more balancing current because they don’t know any better.

Then there’s also the idiots who try to make a pack with refurbished cells, mixing end of life cells with 95% testing cells. (I also used to know this idiot who mixed laptop cells with drill cells, the pack failed within two weeks)

I played around with the idea of an active balancing system, but then realized that the sheer cost of integrating all these flyback converters and the fact that factory new cells from the same batch will stay in balance all the way to end of life. An active balancing system really doesn’t have a practical use.

Really, these BMS are a MONITORING system, cutting power when one cell gets too low or too high.

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its 4x17 cells if I recall correctly

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The one that I have does 2A and balances using a super cap, not resistors, never heats up. Functions off pack power, external power not needed. Another nice feature that’s not apparent till you use it, it measures the balance wire/connector resistance and compensates.
Ive removed all the BMS from my packs, since usually it was a bms that killed a p group. I’m happy with checking balance monthly. Made harnesses for varying S counts for easy plugnplay.

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:heart_eyes:

I have a feeling that something of this nature is affecting my balance harness for my split battery 13s build. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt :expressionless:

You got a link to the balancer?

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Personally I don’t but the only argument I can images is charging super fast

In extreme theory a q30 could take as little as 45 minutes at the 4a spe fast charge rate.
Most chargeres only balance over 4v in the last 12% so 5 1/2minits.
100mah consumption balance circuit that’s 8.4ma total.
So 0.25% ish drift max

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Probably all that’s needed though if the pack was already balanced? It only needs to rebalance for what’s happened since the last charge.

Depends how badly you abuse your cells

I don’t see a way for that to affect cell voltage balance.
If I badly abuse a cell by overdischarging or overheating, or some other nastiness, the cells are still top balanced. Even if the internal resistance (IR) has gone up or the capacity has gone down due to the damage they’ll still all eventually come up to the same voltage when charged.

A good BMS though would assume cells would eventually age, or could be damaged, and not allow them to drift apart from that. Well, at least not allow that without letting the rider know the pack can’t be balanced anymore. :grin:

(Edit) If the cells had a big change in capacity or IR then the BMS could need time (or lots of current) to rebalance the pack but I just don’t see that happening with only one discharge. Over time, definitely. But not immediately.

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That’s the hole point larger balance bleeding will do this faster.

I personally haven’t seen a need but I have small packs I abuse and recharge regularly I can’t rember the last time my packs got below 3v I try to avoid ever useing the vesc soft cut of so generally recharge about 3.4v give me a few tenths of a volt for volt sag

But my point was that in one cycle there won’t be a need for much balancing at all, even if abused. :slightly_smiling_face: There just isn’t a big change in capacity or internal resistance in one cycle. So high balancing current wouldn’t be needed.

Are you saying cells will never drifted by 1/4 of a present so 0.00425v ish

The later CV stage of charging can take quite a while when fast charging due to the early switchover from the CC stage (due to the voltage rise from the cell’s internal resistance). The charger thinks the cells have reached a higher voltage than they really have.

Many BMS’ can, and do, balance when not charging as long as the cell voltages are high enough and far enough apart to warrant balancing.

These two things result in much more time that can be spent balancing.

We can’t think of the effects of cell damage that way. There’s no “official” voltage for the cells to have or drift from. The cell voltage is defined by the charger voltage and BMS during charging.

Three things can happen when a cell is damaged during discharge. It can develop a slightly higher internal resistance, it can lose capacity, or both of those things can happen.

The slightly increased internal resistance will force the cell voltage up some tiny amount during charge, perhaps 20mV if the cell is badly damaged by a discharge. This can force the charger to switch over to the CV stage a tiny bit earlier, actually allowing a tiny bit more time for balancing.

The increased internal resistance does mean balancing is needed but it’s such a tiny amount of charge to remove when you want to drop a cell by 20mV at full charge. At 3.6V it takes the removal of a much larger amount of charge but not at 4.2V.

A loss of capacity means the cell will charge back up faster than it did the previous cycle. But the loss of capacity due to one abusive discharge is going to be quite small. Moderate abuse of 30Q’s in my testing resulted in about a 2mAh loss per cycle for the first 50 cycles or so and about 1mAh per cycle after that. The small loss of capacity for even worse abuse can easily be compensated for by the BMS, even with the 8mAh limit you set in your example for the shortened charge cycle.

A truly abusive discharge cycle that results in a lot more capacity loss than that has probably damaged a lot of cells and the rider should probably consider replacing the pack soon.

There’s a reason why the BMS controller chips from the big companies like Texas Instruments, Analog Devices, etc., only have a relatively low spec for on-board balancing current. It is definitely due to the heat it creates but it’s also because more just isn’t needed.

We can set rarely seen conditions like ultra-fast charging with crappy cells and then, of course, more balancing will be needed. But even then I can set a BMS to balance both on and off charging and I can fully balance the pack every cycle. Once crappy cells are balanced they aren’t getting crappier really quickly. We actually don’t even need a lot of balancing current to keep up with the fading performance of a crappy pack until cells start dying.

If a cell starts failing, and rapidly changing its performance, then certainly the BMS might not be able to keep up with rebalancing the pack to compensate. Thatls fine IMHO because that cell should be replaced. It’s not worth trying to spend more and more time crippling the performance of the entire pack just to bring all the other cells down to the performance level of the failing cell.

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This, I think, is the golden nugget for simpletons like myself.

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As I stated I was referring to the external end of a possibility that could possibly require a higher balance load. And that I personally have not found a need for it with my use

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Just curious here

How do the following BMS operate in regards to balencing:

Diebiems
Flexi lite
LTT smart BMS
Last but not least the bestech 80a discharge bms (forgot model name)