Track racing - setup and riding style

[davidbonde]

After a really good session last week I had three changes ready for today. 1. Front to rear wheel drive. 2. Change of radius rods tabs. 3. A new deck.

But I thought that three changes was too much (turned out tat maybe even two was too much), so I decide to only do the first two…

Front to rear wheel drive. I have been doing front wheel drive for about a year now, and was excited to go back to rear wheel to get a good comparison.

First I just like the feeling of being pulled rather than being pushed better.

Then…

*Weight distribution… I find a difference having the motors either in front or back. It is mostly felt doing sharp heel side turns.
With FWD going in to the turn feels more controllable and the board steer better. With RWD the front feels to light and the heavy tail make things feel off. And it feels like I can’t do the turns as hard.

Think I just like to have the heaviest part of the board under my front foot where I normally have most of my weight.

*Breaking feels better with FWD as I shift my weight to the front. With FWD this gives better breaking.

*When accelerating out of turns (especially toe side) the acceleration shifts my weight back, making it natural to push with the back leg and use that to steer. With RWD this is much easier and the risk of wheel spin is way less.

• I move my front foot around between turns. With FWD this makes the risk of wheels spin higher, and that gives the board a jerk when it happens. With RWD the control while moving the front foot is much better and it gives me a change of having weight on the accelerating wheels all the time.

As I see it both FWD and RWD has their advantages and disadvantages. But the last two areas above are really important for me on the track. So I think I will leave it RWD.

Radius rods tabs. The 3-link truck have three ways of controlling the turning radius. Bushings, radius rods holes and the radius axel radius tabs.

The radius holes closer to the deck makes the board turn sharper.

Having the tabs close to the ground makes the board turn sharper.

This gives each truck six different turning radius’s. And in combination with each other 36 different setups. I love it.

Until now I have been having the tabs down in front and up in the rear. And when I chased speed this summer I had the rods in the roadside holes making it extremely stable. Here on the track in the top holes making it very turny.
Today I had both tabs close to the ground with the rods in the top holes making the board as carvy as can be. I had to see how that felt.

This changed the steering a great deal and my timing became way off. When leaning as I did before, made the board turn much more. This new steering capabilities changed everything. I if I leave it like this I need to get to know this new steering and build new muscle memory.

And I don’t know if it’s necessary to be able to turn this sharp. It might be useful in races with others on the track, where I might need to do less perfect turns, if I am not taking the lead from the start

A good thing though was that I could use my back foot to steer much better when in toe side turns. With the tab down in rear, the rear truck turns much more making it possible to steer with the back foot.

I spend half an hour dialing in the bushings but the steering was still way off. The board wasn’t unstable or anything. Just a very different steering.

I never got fast today. I was over a second slower today than last week. Now the question is if I just had a slow day, or these two changes did change it to the worse, or if I just need to get used to it.

Think I will keep the RWD but I am not so sure about the radius rods change. One hour with this setup isn’t enough to know. It might be that when I get used to the new steering that it would be an improvement. But right now it doesn’t feel like it.

Also I feel it’s to soon to introduce the new deck already when I haven’t made up my mind with todays changes. But I dont think I can wait any longer. I need to try the deck next week.

Radius rods tabs down = more carvy

Radius Rods tabs up = less carvy

Radius Rods Holes = close to deck = more carvy

[MoeStooge]

For me on a 42"wheel base, bar angle up on the rear (carvy) was fun for trail and sub 30mph cruising. For track it is to much rear steer for me.

[davidbonde]

I have made three changes the last two weeks. I came from a set up that I really liked, but wanted to test these three things. I made all three changes within these two weeks. Maybe to much change.

It doesn’t work. I dont like it. Nothing of it.

1. More turny rear truck with the bar angle up. Yeah @MoeStooge too much rear steer. Throws my timing off completely. I have it on a 36" wheel base. It was perfect before with the bar angle up in the rear and down in the front. I think this is worst changes of the three.
2. Rear wheel drive… with the front wheel drive I experienced wheel spin from time to time when moving my front foot around out of turns. With rear wheel drive thats eliminated. But I think I simply just like being pulled better than being pushed. And there is something with the weight distributing in the turns that feels better with front wheel drive. There is not this heavy tail. Rear wheel drive I might still give a chance.
3. I wondered if a zero drop deck would give me a better turning feeling and making me not need to move my foot around. It doesn’t. Not at all. Maybe its because of the chanced rear truck turning that it doesn’t feel good and I tempted to give it another chance with the rear truck changed back. What it does is lifting me higher from the ground, which I just really dont like.

My gut feeling tells me to change it all back to the set up I had, which felt really really god. Also because I feel its a waste of track time and money when I have a unsatisfied session where it feels like crap. But Maybe I should begive some of the changes a second chance.

I will have a two week break from the track because its the holidays.

[KfromtheBay]

Really enjoy this thread. Helps me ponder what kind of setup I want to have on performance board. Keep doing what you are doin my man

[davidbonde]

After two frustrating sessions on the track before Christmas trying out new stuff I am back on a fast setup.

I wanted to try smaller turning radius on the back truck. A zero drop deck. And rear wheel drive. It felt terrible. And it’s not fun being on the track feeling slow. I was over 2 sec. slower with these changes. So I decided to change everything back. It immediately felt good. I needed one lap to adjust the front bushing and I was flying again.

So the setup right now is.

Self pressed double drop and wide as I could make it deck.
Stooge race board drivetrain with race wheels. As carvy as it gets in the front truck and almost as carvy as it gets in the rear.
Front wheel drive.
Motors - SSS 5694 800kv 60v 12kw
4x 4s, 25c, 10.000mh lipos - Two in paraelle l and two in series.
Mamba Xlx ECS’s from castle creation.

The only thing I still would like to try is rear wheel drive without the two other things. I think I can accelerate out of turns better with rear wheel drive. And I am closer to wheel spin when I move my front foot while accelerating. But I changed it back to front wheel because I needed a fast session. And I like the weight distribution much better with front wheel drive. I think that’s more important to me than accelerating a little better out of turns.

I will let this be the setup for some time and focussing on the pilot Technic.

Man… it felt good being fast again. No fastest time today but only 0.04sec. from it. Goal this to be under 34 sec. before the end of January. Have to cut 0.35 sec.

The fast set up:

[murdomeek]

Just had a thought pop into my head.
How would an EUC track time compare?

I’m not an EUC expert, but from what I’ve read: The “pro” ones can go really fast, and have really good turn control (Since it only has 1 wheel)

Maybe some of the EUC guys can chime in?

[davidbonde]

I have thought about that as well. I almost certainly will go to Brussel next month for the festival there. There will be a track and supposedly some good EUC riders. Let’s see what they have.

[MoeStooge]

I’ll put my money on 4 wheels

[longhairedboy]

Depends on the riders of course, but i’m willing to bet a very skilled EUC rider who has been training an equal amount of time as David has would give him a serious run for his money.

[kook]

@moe what do you think of this poly-joint vs. a heim? I have a message into the vendor inquiring about misalignment specs, but it looks like it may have possibilities!

https://www.barnes4wd.com/Forged-Chromoly-Poly-Joint-2-Inch-Mounting-Width-12-Inch-Bolt-Hole-34-16-Right-Hand-Threads_p_887.html

I know most heim rod-ends have a 20-25 degree misalignment throw, how much trow do you think you use in racing and how much do you design for?

Also… when do you think more moe-racing-wheels will be available?

[davidbonde]

Was sick all last week and on the rebound at the moment. But I needed to go to the track. Have made a plan. Must follow it. And now I am one week behind.

Shaky day today. Wanted it all too much and too hard. That makes things not smooth at all. Smooth is very important. Smooth = fast. I had one smooth lap and got a new best lap. Not by much (0.02sec.) but faster none the less. I definitely feel that there is room for more.

It was too hard to keep pursuing smoothness and faster times the whole hour, so I decide to film some video for an idea I got while lying sick. Turned out pretty nice I think

Next I want to try bindings. I dont think I will like it, but I got to try. Got a set of mbs f5 bindings that I will mount for next week. And I am in the process to have yobis binding made as well.

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David Bonde

[davidbonde]

My thought is that on the short track the hairpins with speed on the EUC would be more difficult than on a skate. But I dont know. After seeing Tishawn doing what he does… mmmm…

[RipTideSports]

As far as I know, these joints are not designed for misalignment because they offer pre-misaligned visions at 7 and 11 degrees: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Forged-Steel-4-Bar-Rod-Ends-5-8-18-RH-Thread-Zinc-Plated,25122.html?sku=91008001-STR&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=CjwKCAiAgqDxBRBTEiwA59eEN7Ugt6aeUn9_Q4LreGc31V035jL5FliDBEfoF1uYB-1xBR979Rxg_hoCbhUQAvD_BwE

I do like what I see though, definitely think I could make some urethane parts that would work in these.

[kook]

not shank misalignment… twist and angular missalignment… the urethane sleeves compressing has to allow some misalignment, moe uses a heim rod and then adds bushings externally. if these poly-sleeves allow acceptable twist and misalignment from perpendicular to the shank, they are cheap, add resistance and rebound…

thinking-out-loud as I lay out my racing board links…

[RipTideSports]

I understand all of that since I make the bushings for @MoeStooge. The way they are designed you may be able to get a couple of degrees out of these stock but I would need full measurements to calculate. A possible benefit would be some cushioning of the ride.

[kook]

For science:
(I’m not at the shop to measure angles more exact, I’m playing hookie jajaja)

But I laid out some lines and fully compressed (leaned) the front truck on one board…

If I calc the angles on this stiff carver I get a 14 degree arc and twist in the truck…

[kook]

@RipTideSports

I do like what I see though, definitely think I could make some urethane parts that would work in these.

That’s my hope… Maybe Ill buy one for science!

[MoeStooge]

@kook

moe what do you think of this poly-joint vs. a heim?

Axel Needs to pitch roll and yaw freely. It could work with proper rigging.

First round of HD foam didn’t work out. On to round two.

Degree wise I need to look, I believe we’re in the neighborhood of 30deg of full tilt deck angle . Not sure what you mean by misalignment

[kook]

@MoeStooge

misalignment

misalignment is the amount of roll, pitch, and yaw in any plane, in degrees from perpendicular from the heim shank…

@kook

on full lean on this stiff board, I get about 14 degrees of planar truck movement backward rotation as you can see from the offset from the white edge, I’d need a heim that would allow 14 degrees of misalignment or 28 degrees total misalignment to equal that rotation.

[longhairedboy]

@davidbonde

After seeing Tishawn doing what he does… mmmm…

That’s what i mean. I have seen things that seem to defy the laws of physics on those things which is why i was so interested in them for a minute.