@Belgarion send me an email to sales@diy500amp.com
1 Like
I have a kweld and a glitter 811h, I wouldnāt buy a kweld again nowadays. The glitter is very capable, but the AwithZ certainly looks intriguing. If Iād buy something now it would probably be one of the beefier AwithZ variants. That said since I own a glitter I donāt feel any urge to change
1 Like
My last test welds (post 230) was 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless, with flux
Gear 285
preheating 0.20ms
02ms intermittent
0.2 second interval
double pulse.
My impression was not quite enough.
I carefully cleaned the sanyo cell with a stone on the dremel where I could see no copper, nor feel any irregularities under my finger.
I cut some 2.0mm copper from a 10mm wide roll, different from the 0.2 copper from yesterdays tests from a sheet leftover scrap from Nelvickās laser cutter. It reads the same on my digital calipers.
Perhaps I need a micrometer.
ā¦..
ā¦.
Upped preheating to 0.50ms. everything else the same. No change to weld. Inadequate. One Ok, the other not.
ā¦ā¦
same, but 0.20ms preheat, upped gear to 299 from 285. Inadequate.
ā¦..
same, but Upped gear to 320. 2 Solid welds, more than Adequate.
This 0.2mm copper must be marginally thicker or more pure, or it is the fact I am welding on a cell that I dremelled free of previous welds
With my old welder, test welds on a used, dremelled free of previous welds cell, required lesser power than a new cell with fresh nickelā¦
ā¦.
Same settings as above, but 01ms intermittent. Stronger weld.
Same but 3ms intermittent. Stronger weld.
These small steps up or down are not yielding anything conclusive.
I am not learning anything.
The can of this sanyo cell is now completely distorted now, very convex.
no weld had been consistent or predictable.
Only lesson seems to be that my digital calipers resolution is poor, and or the copper I am using is slightly more pure.
ā¦
Ok, frustrated. On these cells dremelled free of previous test welds, I cannot see ANY difference, changing the preheating, or the interval, or the intermittent.
The only thing making a difference is the gear setting. I am achieving solid welds with gear 320, but changing other settings and trying to determine the effect, positive or negative, I am not seeing enough difference to conclude anything.
My last weld was gear 320, 0.4ms preheating 02ms intermittent , and 0.5seconds interval between weld pulses. It looks and felt so similar peeling off to every other gear 320 weld that I am giving up for the night.
last nights test welds were on basically virgin nickel plated steel can, a slightly different portion of it and I felt i was making some headway.
Tonight, on a dremelled cell, I learned nothing changing the settings( other than gear) up or down.
But achieving solid welds with 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless steel with flux is somewhere between gear 285 and 320. So somewhere about 32% of the welderās capability or less, where tests with without flux required ~55% of this welderās power, and those strips might have been less pure or slightly thicker 0.2mm copper.
I upped the preheating to .30ms, all other settings the same, and the weld was weaker, one spot fine and dandy, the other just not nearly strong enough. Lesser radius of tinned copper visible.
Is this a slightly different purity of copper, or slightly thicker than yesterdays?
IDK. The first weld in the last 22 hours? Room temperature is within 0.5C of last night. Welder says 26C.
used positive tab of sanyo cell. Same everything but put interval back to 0.1 second between weld pulses and 02MS intermittent
Weld is very solid, difficult to remove. Rolling the weld off on needle nose turned the tab convex.
I am done with this cell
1 Like
I also found this to be the case with my kweld
1 Like
just fyi, you could also initiate the DM.
1 Like
Sorry my last post had and has some paragraphs out of order.
I was frustrated, and had a few beers in me and didnāt proofread.
The dremelled cells are no good for determining slight differences in the bells and whistles settings of the AwithZ.
The scratches left by the tool head, change the resistance of the contact between the cell and the copper. There isseemingly no consistency, and trying to determine small changes by changing the preheating duration or the āms intermittentā, or the interval between pulses, just simply would not allow me to see any trends of stronger or weaker welds, no direct cause and effect, and I grew increasingly frustrated.
Yet, I donāt want to test on new virgin cells. The 19 lightly used Samsung 50E cells Nelvick gave me I was able to weld outside the previous welds, on virgin nickel plating on cell 19, but now that cell too is basically corrupted and has a slightly convex can from rolling off so many welds.
I have plans for the other 18 cells, a 6s1p just for my TS101 smart soldering iron, and a 3s4p 11.1v nominal battery to replace the 6+ year old 22AH 12v AGM lead acid battery which still seems Ok, for now. It did help jumpstart a V8 a month ago, but had to sit in parallel with the weak battery for 40 seconds before it could.
I have been using a junky premade 7s battery for the TS101, discharged to 25v or less, and it does not last very long before itās BMS cuts power, and I fear damaging the TS101 charging it above 25v.
I still want to figure out the effect of increasing or decreasing the preheating duration.
The ms āintermittentā, is not the time between weld pulses, but has to be the delay between the preheating pulse and the first welding pulse, but I could be wrong.
The interval between pulses can only be adjusted at 0.1 second. Iād like to determine what effect changing the interval between pulses has.
If the goal is the strongest weld with the least heat entering the cell, these AwithZ bells and whistles should help to approach that goal, and right now I canāt definitively say what any of them really do, and that bothers me.
But I like having the power to weld 0.35mm copper.
2 Likes
I asked A Aye the purpose of the preheating function on a battery spot welder.
The preheating function on a battery spot welder is a brief, low-power pulse that occurs just before the main welding pulse. Its primary purposes are to prepare the welding surface and ensure a more consistent and reliable weld joint.
How the preheating function works
The welding process relies on the electrical resistance at the contact point between the welding electrodes and the materials to be joined. The brief preheat pulse affects this process in two key ways:
Cleans the surface. The initial pulse burns away minor surface contaminants, such as dirt, oils, and the thin layer of oxidation that can form on metal surfaces. This improves the electrical contact and ensures the main, high-current pulse is delivered effectively to the intended spot.
Raises local resistance. As the metal heats, its electrical resistance increases. By adding a preheat pulse, the welder can raise the local resistance of the weld spot. This ensures that when the main pulse hits, the electrical energy is more efficiently converted into heat right at the point of the weld, creating a stronger fusion.
Benefits of using the preheating function
Using a preheating pulse leads to higher-quality welds with better consistency.
Improved weld strength: By ensuring good electrical contact and more efficient heat delivery, the preheat pulse helps create a stronger metallurgical bond between the battery tab and the battery terminal.
Reduced sparking: Contaminants and surface oxides can cause sparking during the main weld pulse, which can lead to an uneven or weak weld. Preheating cleans the surface and minimizes this sparking.
More consistent welds: Without a preheat, variations in the weldās quality can occur due to differences in surface cleanliness or contact pressure. The preheat pulse helps standardize these conditions, resulting in more uniform and repeatable weld quality across all your connections.
Better-looking welds: The preheat function can also help seat the welding electrode correctly, resulting in a cleaner and more defined weld spot.
This practically glowing praise, almost seems like The A eye would profit from the touting of a preheating function.
2 Likes
@SternWake what welder did you have again. Perhaps its good to start every post with it when people report results. 
I have the 14.6kw AwithZ p20B welder
good I just ordered the p60 (for 250) so there is hope for me no offense.
PS does anyone know if you can get the copper flux in europe?
The P60F at 29.2kW, has twice as much power as my p20B at 14.6kw, and I have successfully welded 0.35mm copper under 0.1mm stainless steel at about 95% of max power.
In theory, you should be able to do the same at about 50% power.
Pretty sure Nelvick @DIY500AMP.COM has no issues shipping non battery orders to Europe, and Aliexpress has it too, but a while back they really jacked the price and I am still reluctant to order from AE. It is also called copper brazing paste. I cannot vouch for the products that donāt come in the syringe and appear like what Nelvick sells.
I asked A Aye the difference between shorter and longer duration preheating pulses.
Longer and shorter spot welder preheating durations have different effects on the quality of the weld. A spot welder preheating function, or pre-pulse, applies a small, low-heat current before the main welding pulse. This is intended to clean the weld surface, anneal the metal, and bring the parts gradually up to temperature. The ideal duration is a balance between sufficient preparation and preventing excessive heat buildup that could damage the battery cell.
Longer preheating duration
A longer preheating time delivers more total energy to the weld spot, which can improve the weld in certain situations.
Advantages:
Weld consistency: Can create more even and stronger welds, particularly for harder-to-weld materials like thicker nickel strips or copper.
Surface cleaning: Provides more time to burn off surface contaminants and oxidation layers, which improves the weldās overall quality and consistency.
Gradual temperature ramp-up: Anneals the metal and brings the weld area up to temperature more gradually, which helps in seating the parts correctly.
Disadvantages:
Overheating: A preheating pulse that is too long can deliver excessive heat to the weld area. This risks damaging the battery cell and weakening the weld spot itself.
Material deformation: Prolonged heat can cause the material to deform or become too soft before the main pulse hits, potentially resulting in poor contact and a weaker weld.
Shorter preheating duration
A very short preheating pulse provides a quicker, less intense cleaning and preparation of the weld spot.
Advantages:
Minimal heat transfer: Reduces the overall heat transferred to the battery cell, which is crucial for preventing damage to lithium cells, which are sensitive to high temperatures.
Effective for thin materials: For very thin nickel strips or more sensitive battery terminals, a short preheating pulse can be all that is needed to prepare the surface without risking overheating.
Disadvantages:
Insufficient preparation: May not be enough to properly clean heavily oxidized or dirty surfaces, leading to inconsistent or weak welds.
Poor penetration: Without sufficient preheating, the main welding pulse may not achieve deep enough penetration, resulting in a weld that is strong on the surface but fails under stress.
How to choose the right duration
The optimal preheating duration is a variable that must be fine-tuned for your specific application. Factors to consider include:
Material thickness: Thicker materials require more energy and may benefit from a longer preheating pulse to ensure the surfaces are properly prepared.
Material type: Copper, due to its high thermal conductivity, requires different settings than nickel strips.
Welder power: Machines with high-energy capacity may use shorter pulses, while less powerful units might need slightly longer, multiple pulses.
Weld consistency: If you are getting inconsistent welds, you may need to experiment with slightly longer preheating to improve surface preparation. If you are burning through the material, you should shorten the duration.
The best approach is to start with a short preheating duration and low power, test the weld on scrap material, and gradually increase the time or power until you find a combination that produces a strong, reliable weld without damaging the battery.
1 Like
I asked A Eye the difference between a longer and shorter delay between the preheating pulse and the main welding pulse.
A longer preheat delay in battery spot welding is used to ensure the weld area is adequately heated and contaminants are burned off before the main weld pulse, creating a more stable electrical contact and a stronger final weld, while a shorter delay risks incomplete cleaning and poor energy transfer
. Conversely, a shorter delay is faster but risks a weaker or inconsistent weld due to less preparation of the contact surfaces.
Longer Preheating Delay
**Benefit:**Provides more time to burn off surface contaminants and oxides, ensuring a clean and stable electrical contact for the main weld pulse.
**Process:**The first, shorter pulse heats and cleans the metal surfaces, preparing them for the more powerful second pulse that forms the actual weld.
**Outcome:**Leads to a more effective and robust final weld with a higher degree of reliability.
Shorter Preheating Delay
**Benefit:**Reduces the overall cycle time, which can be desirable for speed.
**Risk:**May not allow enough time for the preheat pulse to thoroughly clean and prepare the contact surface.
**Outcome:**Can result in a weaker or inconsistent weld due to incomplete heat transfer and potential contamination, which can lead to higher resistance and less effective welding.
In summary, the delay before the main weld pulse is a critical factor in achieving a quality spot weld. A longer delay is generally preferred for better weld strength and consistency, especially when welding nickel to battery cells, as it ensures proper heat distribution and surface preparation.
1 Like
I asked A Eye about the interval between multiple pulse spot welds.
AI Overview
Adjusting the intervals between pulses in a battery spot welder has significant benefits and drawbacks, as the pulse timing directly influences the heat delivered to the weld and the final weld quality
. Multi-pulse welders use longer intervals to allow for cooling and to perform specific tasks, while shorter intervals deliver a nearly continuous burst of power, similar to a single-pulse weld.
Longer intervals (multi-pulse welding)
Multi-pulse welding involves a series of separate pulses with distinct cool-down periods in between. This approach is particularly useful for achieving high-quality welds on sensitive or difficult-to-join materials, such as advanced high-strength steel (AHSS) and galvanized steel.
Benefits
Reduced heat-affected zone (HAZ): The cool-down time between pulses minimizes the total heat delivered to the workpiece. This prevents excessive heat buildup, which is especially important for batteries where overheating the cell can cause damage or reduce its capacity.
Contaminant removal: A common multi-pulse sequence starts with a very short, low-energy pulse. This āpre-pulseā is not for welding but for cleaning the surface, burning off contaminants, oxides, and oils that could interfere with the final weld.
Weld nugget tempering: Longer intervals can be used for in-situ post-weld heat treatment. A second pulse can be applied after a specific cooling time to temper the weld nugget, reducing its hardness and brittleness, and improving the overall mechanical performance.
Higher-quality welds: For difficult materials like AHSS, a multi-pulse schedule can create a wider, stronger weld nugget and reduce the risk of brittle cracking, significantly improving joint strength and energy absorption.
Drawbacks
Slower production time: Because it takes time for the weld to cool between pulses, the overall welding process is slower than a single, high-energy pulse. This is a disadvantage in high-volume manufacturing where speed is critical.
Increased complexity: Determining the correct number of pulses and the optimal timing between them can be a complex process that requires significant testing and expertise. Factors like material thickness and type, as well as desired weld properties, influence the ideal pulse schedule.
Shorter intervals (single-pulse welding)
While a single pulse is technically a welding process with zero interval, extending the pulse duration and using very short intervals between pulses is a way to mimic a single, continuous burst of energy.
Benefits
Faster weld time: A continuous or near-continuous power delivery gets the job done faster. This is ideal for high-volume, automated production where maximum efficiency is the primary goal.
Simplicity: With a single-pulse setup, there is less complexity in the weld scheduling. The operator primarily focuses on finding the correct pulse length and current rather than managing multiple pulse parameters.
Lower initial cost: Simpler welding units with fewer programmable features generally cost less upfront.
Drawbacks
Higher risk of overheating: With no cool-down period, all heat is delivered at once. For battery packs, this can easily overheat and damage the cell. A pulse that is too long can even cause the metal to fly off as molten sparks.
Limited ability for complex materials: Single-pulse welding is not ideal for materials that require pre-heating or post-heating to avoid issues like cracking or liquid metal embrittlement (LME). For example, it can have a higher rate of cracking on certain types of coated steels.
Inconsistent results with surface contamination: Without a cleaning pre-pulse, inconsistencies in surface cleanliness can lead to poor or inconsistent welds. The weld quality becomes highly dependent on the quality of the nickel strip and cell terminals
I can weld .2mm with .1mm stainless on top when in 22-25th gear with this welder. It only has 25
I donāt know what type of stainless steel this is but Iām looking into getting martensitic as it has the highest resistance. Or do you think simpler to use .2mm steel instead of .1 @SternWake ?
With the one weld looking wider and stronger than the other, and being gear 22-25 out of 25, it seems just barely capable of welding the 0.2mm under 0.1 stainless.
Did you take the oily finish off of the copper. IPA on a white paper towel turns darker wiping my copper.
I have been doing this before every weld hoping to increase consistency and comparability.
My old cheap purple PCB welder, when the lipo was getting weaker, sanding the 0.1mm copper with 400 grit sandpaper, then wiping with IPA became absolutely necessary.
I only know IPA beer. ?
I didnāt sand the cell or either metal. I only rubbed the cell w alcohol.
But what u think of using .2mm steel for more heat n better welds?
It seems 304 stainless is the standard but thr 400-500 are martensitic and higher resistance
1 Like
Isopropyl alcohol.
Stainless grades other than 304 seem to get pretty pricey
You try .2mm stainless? That seems the best way to reduce the needed current @SternWake
Ive tried 0.07mm stainless, supposedly 304 grade, and canāt tell any difference than the 0.1mm 304 stainless Nelvick sent me.
I have used 0.5mm stainless some 400 series grade too. It required way more power.
I think your money is better spent on Nelvickās welding flux. i was able to go from gear 550 to 320 using flux
2 Likes