Spot welding Copper / Copper Nickel / Copper Stainless Steel Sandwich

The lead acid car battery itself has a huge say in what such a welder can ultimately weld when up near its limit.

Lead acids can get lazy. Ever notice when they are a bit older and the starter turns over the engine a little bit, then stalls, almost, and but then starts spinning almost at normal speed, and then every subsequent start that day seems completely normal?

It’s not just the cold engine factor.

The Pulse cranking amps of a lead acid starting battery can vary wildly, depending when it was last truly fully charged, and when it last had to actually provide ~230 amps to get a starter motor spinning the engine, then about 120 amps to keep it spinning until the engine catches

Even a cared for lead acid battery that was kept on a maintainer might be like WTF?!! when a spot welder first asks for 1500 amps for a 25ms pulse.

I’d recommend giving the lead acid battery a slap across the face first.

Got any significant 12v load to apply? Then see how much voltage it maintains, then apply a decent sized charger ( 10 amps plus) to bring it upto 14.4v quickly and hold it there until amps taper to below 0.5 for a hundred amp hour battery.

The pulse amps of a lead acid battery can improve greatly after a shallow cycle and a true full recharge. So that first attempt at welding 0.2mm copper with max power might later only require 75% of that setting, after the lead acid battery sees a cycle and recharge, a Slap across its face.

I have a 12v air compressor which can draw upto 15 amps, and I use a voltage booster to charge my esk8. 12vdc in and 12 amps input, is about 36v and 4 amps output. I can put a pretty big dent in my lead acid, just charging my esk8. I also have a 100 amp charger to ‘quench’ charge it.

By quench charge, I mean getting it from 12.8v or less, and instantly bringing it upto 14.4v+

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I don’t think you want full size on the stainless. If I were going to try this, I might actually try using two somewhat thin pieces of whatever I were using on top of the copper, one for each weld electrode. As long as it’s enough not to burn through, the point is just to transfer heat, it seems, so less is probably actually better. You’ll push more heat into the copper instead of the rest of the steel or whatever.

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Not a bad idea, I do have a 12v compressor that I could use. The battery is just under a year old and rated at 600cca. It has been kept on a maintainer.

@chr1spe I was concerned about .2mm not being tough enough to handle the vibrations where it bridges two P groups for series connections, but maybe I’m overthinking it. Might have to order some and see how it feels.

I dont remember the settings I used in the past but remember them being low while doing .2mm nickel

Post 164 in this thread I welded 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless steel.

I used No Flux, No preheating nor did I use a second pulse. Gear 550 yielded a very strong weld. I did not feel any need to use more or less power. Scroll up for the pictures.

So basically 55% of my welder’s power. No bells or whistles with preheating or multiple pulses and intervals.

Here is the same sandwich, 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless steel, gear 450, but using flux.

This is on an old Sanyo 18650, not the Samsung 50E as used in post 164, but basically 45% of the welder’s power with the flux, vs 55% without, and I believe gear 450 with flux is excessive.

The weld seems a bit excessive. I rolled the strips off, but it still deformed the can, especially the weld on the right.

I’m gonna try again using flux, and less power.

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This is 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless steel

Gear 385, with flux. No preheating, no second pulse.

The weld on the right is good, the weld on the left tore the SS and the CU, but is too weak, in my opinion.

I have noticed when the welder’s power level is not quite enough, that one of the welds is good, the other is not, and is why I do not do multiple test welds with the same settings on same strip, as then when tearing it off, additional welds might have one think the settings were high enough, when they were not, or if at, or very near the max power of the welder, that it is strong enough, when it is not.

I Did these without preheating or a second pulse to perhaps be more representative of a welder without such features. Gear 385 with flux is too weak in my opinion, gear 450 with flux is excessive, in my opinion.

If the gear strength is linear, and my P20B AWithZ welder at 14.6kw

38.5% of 14.6kW is 5.621kW, and not quite strong enough, IMO.

45% of 14.6kW, is 6.57kw

55% of 14.6kW is 8.03kw

So Hummie’s welder, rated at at 10kW max power, should have power to spare in welding 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless with or without flux.

Very interested to see if it can.

I have to admit to some errors in the function of this welder.

On the main screen there is the ‘intermittent’ and generally I have been using 02ms, and this bothered me, as I assumed it was the interval between the pulses, but 2ms should basically feel like one pulse, and there is definitely two obvious pulses.

On the System Settings menu, there is an “interval Time of Continuous Spot Welding’, and one can choose 0.1 second, all the way upto 2 seconds.

Default is 0.1 seconds, and switching it to 0.2 seconds is very noticeable.

So I believe the ‘Intermittent 02ms’, on the main screen, is the interval between the preheating and the First pulse.

So experimenting and fine tuning with the actual interval between pulses is something I have not yet done. Every double or triple pulse weld I have done in every test in this thread, has been a 0.1 second interval.

I have not really played with the preheating duration, or with the ‘ intermittent’ MS either.

Seems we should use as little power as possible that still welds the chosen material and its thickness adequately.

The flux definitely reduces the power required to weld 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless.

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This is 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless steel.

Gear 385, 0.10ms preheating, single pulse ‘02ms intermittent’, which again I now believe is the interval between the preheating pulse and the actual pulse.

In my opinion the 0.10ms preheating added before gear 385 makes for a good solid weld.

Both Spots are nearly equal.

I guess I should see how low of a gear I can use to weld 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless, with flux.

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0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless with flux

Gear 355

Preheating 0.20ms

Single pulse

Not peeling this off without plyers.

I’ve never worked with 0.2mm pure nickel, but removing this sandwich takes some serious effort.

0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless with flux

Gear 305

Preheating 0.20ms

intermittent 2ms

double pulse

Interval time of continuous spotweld 0.1s

This weld required more force to remove than in the post above.

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0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless, with flux.

Gear 285

preheating 0.20ms

intermittent 02ms

Double pulse.

I upped the 0.1, to 0.2 second interval between welding pulses

Again this weld is not coming off without plyers and significant force, but this weld is not as strong as the one in the previous post.

Notice the flux has only tinned a smaller radius in proximity to the weld.

Upping the interval to 0.2 seconds certainly makes for obviously more separated pulses

I am not sure of the effect.

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This is a very valuable data @SternWake. Have you found bye reducing the ms from 02 to 01 get better results in consistency? Will be nice making a spreadsheet with the settings based on material for that welder. We really appreciate your findings and time.

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To be honest, I am pretty unsure of the effects of the ‘ms intermittent’ between the preheating pulse and the first welding pulse, or what changing the interval between double or triple pulses actually does. Small changes from 2 to 1 ms are likely very difficult to distinguish, amongst the other variables, and my scientific method has been lacking in precision and consistency.

I had more been exploring what thickness copper this welder can do, but also reluctant to max out the welder trying to get 0.4mm to weld.

Upping the preheating duration to 0.20 ms did seem to make an uneven weld at the edge of being strong enough, be more equal and stronger.

One of the reasons I started this thread was to get input on what effects changing the preheating and interval and ‘intermittent’ is intended to have, and why they developed and included such features/technology in these units.

Doing the Single pulse and No preheating was almost mentally soothing, as to eliminate those extra features from the results.

The instructions say very little as to the effects of these included features, and what instructions there are, are not translated into English very clearly.

But basically gear 550, no flux, single pulse, no preheating achieved the same weld on 0.2mm copper 0.1mm SS as gear 285 with flux, double pulse with 0.2ms preheating.

Pretty sure the goal should be achieving a strong low resistance weld, using the least amount of power, while introducing the least amount of heat to cell interior as is possible.

We don’t know the effects of these super high power spot welders on cell longevity.

We avoid soldering directly to the cell, but huge powerful pulses are certainly introducing the interior electrolyte adjacent to the weld, to heat it would be better off without.

To what degree it is detrimental to the battery is unknown, and if fatter copper welded to keeps the cell cooler throughout its lifespan in use, maybe it offsets, while reducing total pack resistance.

I am just starting to play with minimizing the gear and playing with the intermittent and preheating and interval to see the effects on 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless, using flux.

I will let others determine what their welders can or cannot weld. The Fluxless no preheating, no second pulse experiments were to try and get a Kw number that would relate to a different welder that has no second pulse or preheating abilities.

The flux seems to add a lot of consistency, so even though a lot of people have no desire to use it, I am going to keep testing 0.2mm copper with it, and try and determine what effects changing the preheating and the intermittent and interval actually does.

The Flux certainly reduces the energy required to weld 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless.

I think those with welders just on the edge of being capable welding 0.15 or 0.2mm copper under SS, would be wise to acquire some.

A lower gear and longer preheating also seemed to achieve as good a weld as a higher gear and less preheating, but the effects of changing the ‘intermittent ms’ between preheating and weld pulses, and the interval between weld pulses , I can’t say one way or the other at this point.

Prepping the battery and materials for the weld, taking photos, removing the weld, cleaning off excess flux, taking more photos, transferring those to the computer, determining which are the best for cropping and adjustment, then uploading them here does consume a lot of time.

I am still working on refining my interior work station, which is a multilevel desk half inside my small bedroom’s closet. My HEPA Filter to catch flux and solder smoke is not where I want it to be, and I refuse to do any Dremel work or dust making inside. Most of my tools are still in the still way too hot garage workshop, I am still poorly organized, and I spend too much time walking back and forth.

For those who are completely riveted about my choice as to what cell I chose to put inside my dad’s ancient Ryobi screwdriver that had a single 1200mah 10 amp Sanyo cell from the early 2010’s, perhaps earlier, I did use an Ampace JP30.

There is now 0.2mm thick, ~10mm wide copper from Anode to the 15 amp fuse( instead of 0.3mm nickel plated steel) , and the cathode contact I welded the original tab with crimped wire to some 0.2mm copper, to extend the tab, and then welded that to cathode under 0.1m stainless.

There was a gap from the narrow kerf Japanese flush cut saw that I filled with black hot glue with the casing held closed within a plastic spring clamp, and it looks fairly professional.

It took some 9 hours on the stock supposed 4v 180mA charger to reach 4.19v.

I’ve not used it yet to drive a screw, but burping the trigger unloaded, yields far more response than before, and it seems to spin faster, but I didn’t put the optical tachometer on it for a ‘before’ data point.

Compressing the weld with a damp rag cools it super fast.

I don’t think thermally shocking a weld with a damp rag is desirable.

Copper has 4 to 6 times better thermal conductivity compared to pure nickel, so the copper buss itself should be able to dissipate the heat of the spot weld quickly, its just it takes a lot more power to weld copper in the first place. The Stainless steel cap sandwich, lessens the power required too.

So does the Flux/brazing paste.

Perhaps the preheating and playing with the ‘intermittent’, and ’interval’ with the AwithZ welders can also reduce the power required enough to make a difference, by exposing the electrolyte and immediate jellyroll to lesser amounts of spot welder heat, for lesser duration.

Perhaps the Spot welding heat is not much of an issue. I dont know.

Copper nickel sandwich has been done for a while now, and copper nickel steel sandwich requires less energy, and copper stainless sandwich even less than that, and the flux lessens that even more.

I have not heard of any premature battery failures attributed to the extra power required to weld copper, but that might not mean anything, and I dislike that type of reasoning.

It would be beneficial to the community to know whether other welders are capable of welding 0.2mm copper under Stainless steel. I know I can do 0.35mm( 0.2+0.15mm) copper under 0.1mm stainless using flux, at near max power of my p20B 14.6kw AwithZ.

I think I want to order, and use 0.25mm copper for all my future builds, even though less would be more than adequate as I am not pushing limits with my requirements.

I wish I had 0.2mm nickel just for comparison, since that has been the benchmark for so many high power builds for a long while.

The 0.5mm stainless welds, how flat and wide the copper below it was welded to the cell is also intriguing. if just one weld, two dots, can secure the busbar to the cell strongly and with less resistance, that would be a big positive.

I think it would be good to experiment with 0.2 to 0.3mm stainless for welders with ‘power to spare’.

Speaking of ‘power to spare’, I Am interested in seeing Peco’s and Glyphik’s impressions on their AwithZ welder’s too

I will play more with ‘intermittent’ and ‘interval’ and preheating duration later, and See just how low of a gear I can use to get a nice even strong weld using the 0.2mm copper I have.

I have test cells, but they are all still good cells with a lot of life left in them that I don’t want to destroy with welding experiments, and grinding off old welds changes the results of subsequent test welds.

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Regardless the cell is more about how much current are you planning taking from the cell. If your plan is take advantage from the full 125A continues current (TEMP CUT) or 180A Burst for 2 seconds you really need serious busbar I will say a 0.3mm copper strip minimum.

You can weld 0.3mm with the AWIthZ P20B at high settings using copper 0.3mm combined with stainless steel 0.1mm in combination with the special flux. Also you can choose for a higher tier welder.

I still have some pretty significant questions after reading this entire thread that perhaps you guys can answer.

all questions are regarding the new EVE INR21700-50PL 5000mAh and limited future proofing

1a) how thick should the sandwich be to handle this cell specifically? (using it for quads where I actually would like the entire capability of the cell without damaging it)

1b) what is the easiest way create a workable sandwich for this cell?

  1. What welder can create this? I was considering upgrading to the kweld but seeing the cost (360 ish euros for kweld + car battery) I am now considering the AwithZ P60F which is cheaper and even the Glitter H811H

I am mostly in it for making the best long range battery packs for drones/ scooter. and seeing that I can buy a pack for 3x the money I consider a welder to be a good investment.

  1. that flux stuff, anyone know of a European seller or does only diy500amp sell this stuff. I should get my hands on some of that stuff
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@DIY500AMP.COM Thanks for your info. I just rewrote my message to clean it up a bit since I havent found an EDIT button… (maybe because I just made a new account)

Shipping your paste to the Netherlands is probably crazy expensive.

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I can sent directly to your address from the factory. Send me a private message to help you. I already sent to Australia and other places. @glyphiks can tell you. I send a P120D to him.

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I would like to send you a DM because I am interested! is that also disabled because I am new? normally when you click on someones profile you can send a PM.

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Yeah you’ll need to increase your trust/user level before you can initiate dms.

can confirm Nelvick hooked me up with the welder direct from the factory to keep costs down, thanks again @DIY500AMP.COM !!

unfortunately for me, life is being extremely life-like lately and i’ve carved out exactly ZERO time to play with it :face_with_spiral_eyes:

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