I think I’m going to need the bigger trucks 
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did you whistle a hanger filing tune while you did?
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The smaller ones are SO cool.
Super stoked that there is movement towards narrowing trucks, rather than widening them.
These are the only ones I wanna use 
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With urethane 
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11”? 30 PSI? Cool to know the 3.50-4s I have will almost certainly fit 
And also that I made a mistake in not waiting for the new trucks with longer axles 
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@MBS anyway to order the 3’s with the 70mm rather than in addition to? And are the bearings the same as the old hubs? I don’t think it explicitly states on the site.
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@gcalli they already mentioned earlier in this thread that they would consider doing that later based on demand. I ordered the 420s with the 70 axles but haven’t done the replacement yet.
So I think I have about 70 miles on my Matrix III spread across 3 rides.
I like them on the Flux and will be keeping them on here.
This was a gamble because the Matrix II with riptide bushings on here really felt great.
I am 230, my Flux is at 22 and 30 degrees. 8 inch tires.
I was running riptide green and white.
When I first went out I had orange outer / white outer.
That did not work me.
Just standing and trying to turn felt really weird and restricted.
Carving at speed felt good and stable and I could go fast and it was totally stable.
Turning radius was totally shot…
I could not do a u turn across 4 lanes…
So after 5 miles I went and changed the front to orange inner.
Took 4:30 minutes was all.
Changing bushings on these is way better than on matrix II…
I did not do any preload.
It felt too loose and sketchy.
Then did a bit more preload in the back and some in the front.
And it felt too tight.
So I took a bit of preload off and it got just right.
The formula on these bushings is very buttery and turning the lean felt really consistent.
So yeah.
Obviously you can tune the crap out of these.
I was tripping on how a bit of preload changed behavior for me In a desirable way.
I could never really achieve that with Matrix II.
I hit 33 mph on them today which is really fast for me.
And I was rolling around close to 30 pretty comfortably.
Stoked.
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Have you considered the use of cartridge ball bearings in the kingpin interface as opposed to plastic bushings? My biggest complaint with the Matrix II’s was that I had stiction at the pivot on low tension shock blocks. Would love to see roller bearings or ball bearings on that interface if there’s enough meat to allow for a standard bearing size to fit.
I believe other trucks that have taken this approach have had issues with seized bearings, among other things.
Whatever the interface is here, it’s likely going to need to be a consumable item, at least when a nylon bush flogs out, it’ll still work with some slop… if a bearing seizes, you’re gonna have all sorts of worse issues
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Needle bearings have served the MC world for a few decades in rear suspension linkages with 200kg + rider 150+mph in extreme conditions.
Where these sit tends to get all the road salt/water thrown at it over huge distances & if lucky annual regreasing. What would probably help is a seat for a rubber seal & a spacer to go between the bolt and the bearing although not sure if there is room for that in with current designs.
As used in many industrial applications and swing arm linkages.
Typical part diagram, marked #2.
IMO something like that would be fairly f’ing indestructible in an esk8
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Needle bearings are used in suspension designs that built to absorb shock. I don’t think it’s safe to assume they’ll hold up to an esk8 system with no shock absorbtion.
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The bearings are in the unsuspended parts of a linkage as well I.e. unsprung.
Yep, definitely, but even that unsprung linkage benefits from the shock absorbing system of 10" moto shock travel. We have nothing like that in esk8 other than our knees to absorb shocks in the system.
A kingpin gets absolutely punished in esk8, which is why we see welds snapping on trucks sometimes.
I’m pretty sure needle bearings have been tried on other vendor’s trucks and they fail, which is why most truck designs use bushings.
Maybe on propel boards or something they could work
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No doubt about breaking trucks we’ve all seen the pictures, I’m not aware of the designs which tried to use them & suffered bearing failure.
Would have thought cost & complexity was a factor to a degree.
Only thing about a needle or roller bearing is that part don’t really roll…they go back and forth over a small degree.
I think a bronze bushing would work better, will take a beating and eliminate most slop.
A spherical bearing has probably already been used?
Delayed response regarding bearings for @Kodin and @magharees and others …
We actually have a lot of experience with using bearings for KP pivots. Our original Matrix trucks (circa 2003?) used a 60002RS (10x26mm) bearing. Worked great. Never had a failure. But that was with a nylon top truck which absorbed a fair bit of shock.
I tested skate bearings in the early stages of the Matrix III projects. I wanted to go that route for the precision which was awesome, but a few things pushed me away from them (at least for now). Assembly is more of a pain in the design I was using (small issue), and there were a few aesthetic things I didn’t like - it’s hard to completely eliminate “clicking” sounds when turning, and they feel a bit “harsh”, especially for urethane wheels (for better or worse, we want to explore that direction more…)
Needle bearings would be awesome for bearing loads (better than deep groove ball bearings like the 608), but not good for thrust which is needed as well, but you could separate those two demands (use a washer for thrust). Maybe a tapered roller as a compromise?
Bronze bushings as suggested by @m_oliver1 seem like a good option too, but no experience with them to comment on.
Spherical ball - not applicable for our trucks but thought could be cool for traditional skate. I remember seeing some designs like that a while back for the purpose of removing lateral slop from skate bushings (can’t remember brand off hand).
So many options! For now we’re just sticking with the same nylon bush as the M2. Our experience has been really good with them, and we made a few tweaks to make the better. I saw some people have had bad luck with other brands’ nylon bushings but as far as I know ours have been solid (probably just thicker?).
In summary… the R&D continues, but I don’t foresee a change to our production spec nylon bushing in the near future.
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Thanks @rafaelinmissouri for sharing your real world esk8 M3 bushing experience. Happy you have found a mix you’re pretty happy with. My experience / thoughts…
- A little compression goes a long way. Even a 1/4 turn makes a BIG difference, so use sparingly. You can really dial in. Also, too much compression makes things weird. If you’re needing much more than a full turn you should consider the next harder bushing.
- Oranges Outside - I ride this for the demo ramp which is fast and straight (no turning). With bindings obviously. Love it super stable. Not applicable for esk8 except for breaking speed records (not remotely turnable without bindings.
- Whites Outside - Love this as all-around set-up with bindings. Carves great, but stable at speed. Great rebound.
- Oranges Inside - I ride this on my crude DIY electric set-up (no bindings just for testing). Good for carving but feels twitchy at speed if shocks not compressed. Compressing the back but not the front is how I’m currently riding that set-up.
- Whites Inside - SO FUN for going slow and carving like crazy. But definitely NOT FOR SPEED***.
- Bindings make SUCH a difference. I know the majority of skaters will never go that route, but WOW! You get so much more out of your board with bindings (ANY board IMO). It’s a commitment, so I understand why people are reluctant, but it’s the best way in my opinion to have a board that goes fast AND turns sharp (thanks to binding leverage). I mention this because with respect to bushing difference it’s totally different advice depending on whether you’re riding with or without bindings.
***We shipped our 420mm trucks with whites in inside position primarily for esk8 (i.e. no bindings) whereas our 400mm trucks shipped with whites in outside position for mountainboarders (i.e. with bindings), but wondering if all should just ship stock with white shocks in outside position for our next batch…? @rafaelinmissouri did you ever try whites in outside pos?
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