What is the point of practicing something that is entirely unrelated to racing, then? Also, how am I supposed to know where people are going to be when they seem to be weaving all over the place across the line? My intention was to just race as fast and smoothly as I could because, being in sportsman, most people didn’t have much experience, and I thought trying to take up as much of the track as possible would be dangerous. If I race again, I guess I need to practice seeing how much space I can take up to make things as dangerous as possible for everyone on the track. Forcing inexperienced people to be extremely aggressive if they want to pass sounds like a bad idea to me, but I guess it’s how it’s supposed to be done.
let’s not overanalyze it.
sportsman/novice… stuffs gonna happen.
get out ride track more. (call it practice if you must). have fun.
we’re all skateboarders learning how to race.
there’s a lot of fun to be had trying to learn that together,
there will be a lot of mistakes. we need to forgive most of them, learn from all of them.
10 Likes
Ok, for the sake of completeness (and anyone else please chime in for corrections):
- racers ahead must not move erratically
- racers to the side must yield enough space for others to avoid the course bounds
- racers behind must not present a collision hazard where others can’t see them
It doesn’t matter if the contact happened before they hit the wall, since there are limits to how tightly someone can turn. If the guy on the inside was forcing the outside guy onto a trajectory where he wouldn’t have been able to avoid the wall, it’s the same difference
7 Likes
Ew why not just go faster?
If you’re in first place and 2nd is faster than you and you’re just trying to block them, that just seems like a dick move. I’m cool with taking a worse line, but actively trying to block someone faster than you sounds really lame.
2 Likes
The only one of those I see as having occurred is maybe three, but I’d say if you’re going to take that rule really seriously, you’d almost need to disallow ever passing someone who is regular on the left or who is goofy on the right. For cars where it’s clear that if the front of your vehicle is ahead of the driver, you’re visible, that rule is much easier.
Also, the person who was limited in their ability to avoid a collision by the tightness of their turn in that situation wasn’t Evan IMO. If Evan had gone wider, I doubt there would have been an issue, but he tried to turn in tight while the guy was passing. I don’t know if I’d call it erratic, but his line would have been unexpected for me if I were the guy trying to pass him.
Edit: And to be clear, by wider, I mean wider where they collided/nearly collided. Obviously, he eventually ran in to the wall and couldn’t have gone wider there, but it looked like that was either because of the collision/near collision, or an overreaction to it. Maybe there still wouldn’t have been space, but it looks to me like there was.
This is what defending means, not “active blocking”
4 Likes
Dude, I don’t know what your problem is. This isn’t rocket science. Every racing series figured this out a century ago. The basic rules are pretty much the same for every series. The problem is not that we can’t figure out how to write a rulebook; it’s that we don’t have a race steward or any form of ensuring safe racing, which leads to individuals of poor character taking advantage of this opening to race dirty.
The basic components to create a safe racing environment are pretty short.
If a racer is defending off the racing line, they must leave at least one car’s width when moving back toward the racing line. Once braking begins, they can only adjust direction to follow the racing line.
For an overtake, the overtaking rider must be ahead at the apex to be entitled to racing room at the exit, if not, it’s the overtaking rider’s obligation to maintain a safe space by backing out.
No rider shall force another driver off the track or come in contact with another rider through any means (this is the one where its important to have a race director because if you force someone who is violating the previous 2 rules off the track you should not be penalized)
all contact incidents and violations of previously defined standards will be reviewed at the discretion of the race director (open to protests) and penalties (predetermined) will be awarded for violation and racer endangerment, conclusions are final.
9 Likes
This one is F1 specific, and has created some bullshit “yield or we both crash” situations (see Mexico 2024 Verstappen v Norris)
The only other thing I should note is “novice” class should not come with a significantly decreased quality of racing, we’re all just slower. We shouldn’t allow stupid, dangerous moves just because we’re inexperienced. All levels of motorsport push against bad racecraft.
7 Likes
To add onto this, the track is never wide enough to go 3 across. There’s an inside, and an outside. If someone’s only going to attempt to overtake me on the inside, i’m going to stay there. Staying on the apex the whole time would also punish him for trying to stay on my ass instead of going wide. This would result in the people behind him catching up, fighting him for position, which would slow him down enough to let me comfortably keep p1. Nothing I did was particularly egregious, it was just a half decent defense until I missed the apex on the turn before he went into me. There’s nothing in that situation I could’ve done to prevent the crash after the turn, while he could’ve turned left instead of drifting towards me. He was actively going into me when there was one board-width between him and the barrier. If I hadn’t ended up in the barrier, we would’ve collided, which would’ve been much worse for both of us since that’s an acceleration zone.
8 Likes
It’s present in almost every FIA-sanctioned formula series, INDYCAR, and GT racing. There are slight variations in how “alongside” is defined, it usually ranges between 50-100% but its very common
my understanding was ahead at the apex is something specific to the formula series. Significantly alongside is present in every other motorsport since it doesnt encourage racers to do stupid divebombs for position
ahead at the apex allows you to shut doors on people (dangerously) if you’re slightly ahead.
significantly alongside forces you to leave the door open once you’re alongside to some extent
1 Like
Didn’t someone had a pretty clear video of the guy running into you? I’m pretty sure I saw it.
Edit: Found it, but I decided not to relink it since the discussion had derailed quite a bit.
My deal is that I wasn’t told were were following F1 rules, and what he did didn’t look that bad to me.
It doesn’t matter, though. You guys have convinced me I don’t want to be on a track with you.
4 Likes
Alright! I appreciate the video. Outside view: Seems like a lot of people here are Nascar or F1 fans that assume everyone should know these rules and stratagems even if it’s a novice class and not even the same vehicles. Esk8 is new and not established like cup series races but I’m genuinely shocked that there was no pre race rules, guidelines, or even just a heads up on track etiquette if you’re inviting people of all class levels and backgrounds to a racing event. You can’t really just say “well all the other world level racing leagues have rules” when those rules change regarding fouls, contact etiquette, etc.
I don’t watch NASCAR so to me, defending just seems like being as big of an obstacle as you can while not breaking rules. Fully aware that’s against the grain of the convo here but it’s an honest and open take from someone who would show up to one of these events and just ride the ideal line the whole time trying to go as fast as I can til I had to take an outside line to pass. Personally, I’d only want to worry about others if I’m behind them. Most people are leaning towards “there is some balance to maintaining your ideal position vs creating an un-ideal position for the person behind you.” so if that style or riding does not sit well with you, perhaps these events are not for you.
10 Likes
Watching video I see just enough space also, and every other lap in the guy took the same line so i dont think he widened it maliciously. Also adjusted and seemed surprised when contact happened, which he did not initiate. It was an aggressive pass followed by defensive move and thats racing. So to me even if its close and reviewable its not a foul.
1 Like
I fully agree with this and it’s presented much better than I’ve been presenting my stance. I would just like to add, in my very limited experience on tracks on things besides skateboards, what was emphasized as THE RULE was don’t cut across the race line in front of someone. In more casual track experiences and even some races where people have different skill levels and may be in/on vehicles that aren’t extremely closely matched, that is the most important rule for keeping people safe.
I did not realize, and honestly don’t want to be a part of something where the goal is to force beginners to understand and execute an F1 legal pass while someone is doing everything they can to block them. That doesn’t sound fun to me, but especially doesn’t sound safe to me, which is why I said I don’t want to be on a track with you guys. Those rules may create intense battles that some people find entertaining, but battles introduce danger that is more than I want to deal with on a skateboard. I just want to go around a track as fast as I can on my skateboard, which I guess has now been named a parade.
2 Likes
You got a bit dog piled on for your take and as you said, maybe you didn’t present your stance accurately. Don’t take it personally and let it detract from this new and growing category of racing. I’d like to see European style time trials inplementned as well where it’s personal lap bests so it caters to everyone. Some people like going for PRs, some people like battling it out for position. Different strokes for different folks.
At a bare minimum, all racers should be given rules/guidelines ahead of time and etiquette should be reminded of before racing. If the 16 year old at the local arcade can do it, surely race organizers can.
6 Likes
Hard agree. Even if it’s common sense to people who’ve been exposed to racing, it should 100% be spelled out during the safety brief.
I don’t follow the major series either. People have been referencing the big leagues because they’re prominent i guess, but the takeaway should be that right-of-way principles are practically universal.
Someone in front has right of way over someone behind, and someone on a collision course with the race boundary has right of way over somebody next to them. This is true in a million dollar race car, a go cart, a bicycle, a foot race, and even normal car travel on public roads. If you want to go around someone, you gotta wait till there’s space to do so.
@chr1spe I don’t understand why you have such a chip on your shoulder about being “forced” to race safely when you’ve been excusing someone who forced another rider into a wall. It also sounds like road rage mentality that you think someone riding the racing line ahead of you should simply get out of your way.
Maybe enough space? Pretty marginal if so, but i also see the inside guy driving both boards towards the wall well before the contact. The sketchiness here did not occur exclusively at the point of closest apprach to the wall.
Every other lap, was he riding side by side with another racer? If so, his line should’ve been tighter than the previous laps. Legit overtake, bad corner exit.
7 Likes
I don’t know why you even think I have a chip on my shoulder. I don’t see the incident as someone having been forced into the wall, and have no problem with people who are on the race line. I don’t think Evan was on the race line. I think he was very clearly cutting across the race line. He tried to go from a wide at the apex to a very shallow exit, which is where I see the whole issue as having started. That is shown in your first image, but that angle is hard to interpret. This is where that happened from the other angle:
Which is why I was arguing the initial incident was over 10 feet from the barrier. From my point of view, where the thing you absolutely want to avoid is crossing the race line, this was where the issue started, and, to me, was pretty unambiguously Evan trying to cross the race line, which I see as a huge no-no, and extremely dangerous.
Had Evan not tried to cross the race line, and still been forced into the barricade, I’d 100% unambiguously agree that it was dirty from the other person. To me, though, it looks like this incident led to a loss of control or overcorrection that put him in the barricade while there was probably enough room to safely ride side by side.
1 Like