Cloud Wheels/Clone SR Foamies Review

Article, Review, Interview Requests
#554

Agree with everything you said. All true. I had many of the same thoughts as you concerning axial loads. But I recently changed my mind concerning those loads.

I suspect that the differences in axial loads are not as great as one might think they are. Certainly if you are comparing a TB 110 mm and an Iwonder wheel turning a corner on a perfectly flat and smooth surface then the TB wants to sit flat and the Iwonder wants to twist. Agreed. Totally.

However once the surface becomes irregular and bumpy then the reverse happens. The square profile TB tire hits a rock on the outside edge and then it wants to twist because the entire weight is sitting on the outside edge. Its a shock load with a great deal of leverage against the centerline of the tire.

The soft and round profile Iwonder would absorb the irregularity of the rock. The shock load would be less sever. The further the rock hits from the centerline of the iwonder tire, the less sever the shock and the lighter the load.

I’m not saying the Iwonder tire is superior. I’m just saying that when you move from a hardwood floor to a rough road, it becomes difficult to argue that the Iwonder core has more sever twists and loads to deal with compared to a conventional large diameter PU wheel.

What the Iwonder does suffer from is an insufficient quantiy of core material and a problematic un-reinforced core composition.

A conventional Nylon +GF core configured for Kegle might have enough structure to support the bearing without cracking. I can’t see the spokes cracking. I don’t think the rim would collapse.

I’d say Iwonder should atlease test a prototype. Lathe the core out of a traditional PU wheel, shape it like an Iwonder Rim. Bond an Iwonder tire to it as a rough prototype for stress testing.

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#555

The other potential solution might be mass 3D printed Aluminum cores – identical in shape to the existing I-Wonder core. I’m not sure if the Iwonder Tire and foam would bond effectively to aluminum. But if bonding was possible then they could skip the costly mold development and new material testing and jump directly into a position where there would be zero chance of a core failure.

#556

You got it opposite. Carefully consider the shape of the urethane (the structure), the foam (lets pretend its hollow air since it provides no structural support) and the core.

In a regular wheel, the urethane is one continuous circle, any impact or pressure from the side or straight is spread homogeneously through the material and dissipated into the core evenly, if you run an impact simulation, the impact propagation would look like a wave generated from a single point, the single point starting from the outside of the wheel, to the core, where it is almost fully dispersed horizontally.

The cloud wheels, are essentially struts of urethane. During regular riding, the wheel is applying singularity points of pressure to the core where the urethane spokes go, the foam being an air filler only. Even during riding in normal flat conditions, unlike a normal wheel where the core sees a continuous rotation of pressure, the cloud core is being hammered in singularity points over and over.

The only reason why I keep disagreeing with you, is that you are very focused on only the material of the core, and not stepping back and looking at the whole picture. What if they change to gf nylon and the cracks keep happening? Then what will you say?

#557

It looks like you are talking about how the energy of an impact is dissipated thorugh the material.

I was thinking mostly about the torsional forces on the bearing compartments.

On smooth ground traveling in a straight line the loads would be equal:

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On flat ground turning there would be more torsional forces for the Iwonder:

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On irregular ground, there could easily be higher torsional forces on the conventional wheel because collisions with stones would happen further from the centerline.

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Also, the spongy properties of a cloud wheel would spread out impact over a longer period of time.

@ShutterShock, whom I have tremendous respect for, suggested that the Iwonder cores would be under greater stress than a conventional PU wheel.

I agreed that his point would be true while turning, but that other real life road conditions could create relativley higher torsional forces on the bearing compartments of the conventional PU wheel.

So if you are comparing a Nylon GF core in a 110mm TB wheel to a similar material and design of core designed for an I-wonder 120 mm wheel, I supect the torsional forces on both cores would not be significantly greater for either core.

So if the material was a similar Nylon+GF, and the spoke design was similar (kegel) and if the outer diameter of the core was similar, then I suspect the redesigned i-wonder core and bearing compartments would not be overloaded simply due to the round profile tire and the soft tire characteristics.

Really, I’m being an optimist, and saying that it would be worth it for I-wonder to test a prototype that took advantage of the industry standard core material and the stronger denser spoke design of a kegel pattern core.

I’m also agreeing with @BluPenguin and @jeffwuneo that just changing the Iwonder core to Nylon GF without changing the core design would probably not be sufficient to prevent cracks and fractures. The two of you have argued that point quite a few times. I now understand and agree with that point.

1 Like
#558

professorshartsis? :point_up_2:t5:

8 Likes
#559

Screenshot_20200331-204218_Samsung Notes
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This is what I meant by the impact load, the foam creates hollow spots which intensifies the impact force to the core rather than spread it out, this then also spread right down the spoke into the inner bearing shell

1 Like
#560

So I could see how the iwonder tire could put alot more force on the rim of the core because less the spongy center of the tire is not translating the forces into central body of the core cylender. That makes sense. But are those increased loads enough to break a rim? Isn’t the biggest problem the cracking bearing compartments?

#561

Look at one of the pictures, the crack started right in line with the spoke. Not sure that’s a coincidence…

#562

That’s not how interpret the crack. I see the crack happening because the bearing is busting out of the bearing compartment. By far the weakest part of this wheel is the skinny cylender of plastic around the bearing compartment. No reinforcing fibers in the plastic. Signs of plastic fatigue.

Lets assume I agreed with you that the force that broke the bearing compartment came from the spoke. Sure. That’s possible. But the thing that broke is the bearing comparment. That’s the weak link in the chain.

Either theory is possible. The round bearing streaches the bearing comparment and it cracks. Or the spoke sends load into the outside of the bearing compatment and it splits.

The problem is not the excessive force. The problem is the lack of strength in the feature that cracked.

1 Like
#563

If the crack is due to impact forces, gf nylon may crack even worse… Reinforced materials are stronger but they fail more catastrophically when they go

#564

Paging @dani come in Dani. This would be an interesting simulation

2 Likes
#565

It seems to me that you are saying that its the tires fault that the center hub of the rim cracked.

And you also seem to be saying that no other plastic or core design could withstand the loads created by this unusual tire.

These two theories just seem very unlikely to me. I understand what you are saying but I don’t see it.

If the plastic is cracking and crumbling and the bearing compartment and spokes have far less material than OEM wheels then I’d say the manufacturer should focus on building a protype that corrects those problems.

What are you saying?
a) Don’t even try?
b) Switch to aluminum becasue no plastic can handle the unusual tire loads?
c) Rededign the shape of the core but keep the PC/ABS beause the industry standard material might not be any better.

What do you think the manufacturer should try because I know we agree that the current product is not engineered to last.

Or are you saying that switching to NGF without improving the core design is likely not going to prevent cracking. Becasue if that’s what you are saying, then I certainly agree with that.

#566

Problem 1: core shape cannot be modified without creating new pulley shape, at this point just switch to kegal. 2: for a solid core design: kegal. I feel like retooling for gf nylon core without 100% guarantee that it will fix the problem is a waste of money. The manufacture needs to do some evaluation on weather gf nylon can fix the problem 100%, otherwise what is the point?

Here’s my take on this, and this sentence summed up what I have been trying to say. what if the manufacturer does not want to make a product that lasts?

You have been debating on core shape and material selection, which is great, IF, the goal here is to make a wheel most durable and high performance.

I completely understand your point, If i was designing the core and those 2 things were the main criteria, it would definitely not be what is being sold… But what if I was asked to design a core with minimal production cost with a reasonably low, but existing, failure rate? It would look a lot like that…

My point is, the abec core was selected I think due to the popularity of the pulley on many production boards. This alone already handicapped the design. The abec core design is not strong enough for a wheel this massive. I already know this. I still like the looks. Second is, the core was made at a high volume, low cost production. The model here is quantity over quality.

So the debate here is not what material or shape, the debate here is, how do we convince a bottom dollar high volume manufacturer to make high performance products?

#567

Seen on the FB group, something else that could well account to user error. I’m not familiar with those pulleys, but if the bearings aren’t locked in place, and they can find creep out of their seating, this would destroy the core in no time. Is there an unfilled gap between the pulley bearing and the inner wheel bearing?
Also the bolt on pulleys that they pictured on the website, where only bolts traverse the core would have a good chance at hammering the core. Tighten the bolts too much and you’d crack the core, or keep them too loose and they’d hammer the spokes during accelerations and braking. If the only support is from the bolts, that is surely not enough (at least for high torque / heavy riders).

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#568

If they don’t change they won’t be able to sell any product. Certainly not for $200 a set.
The word is out that their current product is unsave. You seem to care about the manufacturer. You already said that you recommended NGF to them for thier next product. If their answer is “no, we are going to do it the cheap way becasue we make more money and we don’t care if some wheels fail” – Then give up and focus on warning fellow riders not to purchase or ride on this companies products.

Then let them go out of business as they should.

You agree with me that the product needs a different core design and NGF to be a safe replacement for OEM electric longboard wheels. So why would you try to convince me that the unique tire creates loads that would crack an NGF core.

The existing product is unsafe and the manufacturer won’t be selling too many more of them. The current molds will need to be discarded. If they build a new set of molds that are also limited to unreinforced plastic, then their next products will fail and so will thier business.

As far as I can tell this is the only electric skateboard wheel that is manufactured with an un-reinforced plastic core. They should recall the product that is out there, stop selling it as a replacement for high end electric longboards and they should build a product around industry standard materials that keep riders safe.

If they refuse to do that then my advice would be to distance yourself from them instead of explaining all the reasons why you feel its ok for them to continue selling substandard products that have the potential to kill riders. You have defended the idea that such a decision is ok becasue the molds are cheaper and because they can make more money.

You keep telling me that I’m wrong about everything. Wrong about NGF. Wrong about which loads are cracking the existing bearing compartments. I expect your next post will tell me i’m wrong about something else.

The product is unsafe. The product uses substandard materials. The idea that its ok to keep using the same substandard materials for improved profit is an argument that no electric longboarder would accept. The idea that failures are ok within the warranty period if it maximizes profits is also unacceptable to riders. The idea that failures outside the warranty period are of no concern is unacceptable to riders.

All of those ideas are alien to me. I would not accept them no matter how many more times that you tell me i’m wrong.

1 Like
#569

What do you think I’ve been trying to say this whole time? I keep making the point that this company prefers mass market to high quality.

I only said it might crack a clone abec core. I think with a kegel core, even PC/ABS will not crack.

That’s their choice. There is no shortage of cheap wheel clones out there, that will all suffer similar fates. This fits in with those. Go browse ali sometimes.

I’m defending their right as a manufacturer. There is no “standard” to withhold. There is no international skateboard wheel certification and safety ratings. They make what they do, it is up to you to buy it.

Again, what standard? You’re doing the “well everyone else does it so they should too”. I’m not defending sub-par materials, I’m defending freedom of choice, both their choice to make whatever they want, and your choice to buy it or not.

Why do you think it is the company’s responsibility to protect /you/. This is the reason why coffee cups have hot warning labels and why you can’t buy M80 firecrackers. I say fuck it, blow your fingers off, no warning needed. If you as a consumer is not smart enough to understand the product and it’s purpose, don’t blame the manufacturer for not making what you THINK you bought.

Go ahead, tell everyone that those wheels may crack, warn all the riders. I’m supportive of that. That is your choice as a consumer to warn fellow consumers of this item. But don’t sit here and point at the manufacture going “wahhh, you didn’t make what I thought you made”

2 Likes
#570

So just too be clear, are you saying you contacted the manufacturer, that you suggested upgrading to NGF and switching to the kegle core pattern. Are you saying that they replied back to you with something like no thanks. Thats too expensive. We will keep doing it with PC/ABS because the molds are cheaper and we make more money.

Is that what happened?

#571

No, they did not reply to me at all, which shows they don’t really give a crap. Jeff is going to talk to them and since he is another china manufacturer, it may hold some weight. So far they have been minimizing media damage and playing defensive measures. I don’t like it, but again, it’s not my call. If they want to dig themselves into a hole, go for it. If they think that this does not bother their top dollar, okay. I won’t make decisions for them because they as a business can make their choice, and I can make mine. I gave them my 2 cents and so will Jeff, but I won’t cry about it if they decide to say fuck you. There are other options out there, and if I feel brave I’ll keep riding these because I still like how they feel.

It is not worth my time to convince someone else of what I wish for. I understand you think all my posts have been defending them, I have simply been making a point to let everyone know how these manufactures think and operate, and don’t hold your hopes too high, and make an educated purchase decision knowing this. That is all.

2 Likes
Problem with Slick Revolution/iWonder Cloud Wheels (SERIOUS)
#572

I just wish you would have lead with the last two paragraphs.

Lets see what they do.

#573

This is still going on? Holy marathon batman. I’ll leave you lovebirds alone.

5 Likes