An Evasive icon: The ESCape

[DerelictRobot]

@Trampa

Because of these regulations it is wise to stay clear of freshly published designs in Europe. You never know what has been published and where it was published. I usually publish my designs in a certain way. On some stuff I put registered designs, on others I go for community_designs.

I informed Stewii that I obtained community designs for the VESC 6.

I have to say that from my perspective, this comes across as you attempting to discourage him from producing the ESCape, which given that this is based on an open source project, looks pretty bad if I"m speaking frankly.

In the past I’ve stated that while your enforcement of your VESC trademark is a bit aggressive given then size and context of this ‘market’, it’s within your right as its your trademark.

But if we’re stripping away all of the legal speak of design protections here, it sure does sound like you were trying to tell him:

“Dont make a square shaped ESC or any color or size because we have a design protection on it.”

I have a hard time not viewing this as anti-competitive and against the very spirit of open source.

You have previously stated that your primary concern with the open sourcing of the VESC design was that it would create ‘cheap knock-offs’. This was also one of your primary justifications for your strict trademark enforcement policies, if I recall correctly.

Which is why, when I essentially backed Jason Potter into a corner on a public debate on the topic of Enertion’s responsibility to contribute to open source, you stated in regards to pushing the release of the Foxbox Unity Schematic:

Benjamin thinks Enertion should not publish the Schematics. It’s a bad design and if other companies copy it, there are more bad ESCs out there + it would push Foxbox UI.

But the ESCape clearly was a thoughtful and well-designed implementation, so why try to stifle growth of the project for any reason aside from you not wanting to compete with it? Is that accurate?

Also, clearly the Focbox Unity has held up just fine. Not what I would call a ‘bad design’

I guess for me personally, the issue is that it appears you are taking actions that alienate and scare off people from wanting to get involved with the open source VESC project, in the name of profit and competition.

PS: does @torqueboards have anything to worry about? TB6 is very square-ish and also of some color containing some text

[Kellag]

@DerelictRobot

speaking frankly

Hehehehe

[mmaner]

FYI, this is the only design filed by Trampa in the EU. It’s for a handlebar and they let it lapse which means it’s void. Could it be more misinformation from Trampa?

[akhlut]

This shit is such a sham.

From wikipedia above

Definitions

A design is defined as “the appearance of the whole or a part of a product resulting from the features of, in particular, the lines, contours, colours, shape, texture and/or materials of the product itself and/or its ornamentation”.

Designs may be protected if:

• they are novel , that is if no identical design has been made available to the public;
• they have individual character , that is the “informed user” would find it different from other designs which are available to the public. Where a design forms part of a more complex product, the novelty and individual character of the design are judged on the part of the design which is visible during normal use.

Scope of protection

The scope of protection conferred by a Community design includes any design which does not produce a different overall impression on an informed user, taking the degree of freedom of the designer into consideration.[5] A Community design further confers on its holder the exclusive right to use it and to prevent any third party not having his consent from using it.[6] For an unregistered Community design, however, the contested use must have resulted from copying the protected design.[7]

Can you tell its not a trampa vesc 6? You’re good.

[Trampa]

My philosophy is: If you design a thing and make a PCB why does it need to look identical in any aspect. If I sit down and design a ESC based on a schematic I would try to make things different or improve things. I would not be happy with a replication of a thing the world has seen already.
The HW6 looks different to the 4 for a reason. And if I would re-design the 6 it would look different again
There are 1000 possible designs, why go for the exact same?
Open Source means you can use the stuff to create your own Version or use it in your project that might differ anyway. OS means you can re-mix things and learn things.
OS does not mean necessarily you should replicate what exists already. It is boring and does not push things forward. Benjamin and I like to innovate and improve things and we want to stipulate innovation rather than Ctrl C Ctrl V mentality.

Brand TM means you need to create your own brand, just like Jason Potter did it with the Focbox.
He showed how easy it is and how little it matters to use your own brand for your own product.
Stating compatibility was never an issue since the TM policies are similar to the LINIX TM policies.

Torque HW 6 design is different: Connectors are located in a different position, mirror flipped etc. Similar but you can clearly see that something is different. The HW 6 design is now on the market since a while, the design differs, so I don’t see any issue here.

[Rojitor]

Stewii did a great job at a reasonable price. Itches like a bitch huh? Shut the fuck up Frank. You are annoying.

[Trampa]

Designs can also be in the hand of anyone who gives a license.
Many patents are in the hands of private people who give a license to a company.

[torqueboards]

It’s getting hot in here.

[DerelictRobot]

@Trampa

My philosophy is: If you design a thing and make a PCB why does it need to look identical in any aspect. If I sit down and design a ESC based on a schematic I would try to make things different or improve things. I would not be happy with a replication of a thing the world has seen already.
The HW6 looks different to the 4 for a reason. And if I would re-design the 6 it would look different again
There are 1000 possible designs, why go for the exact same?

This all just sounds like your personal justification for trying to take out competition through legal pressure. As one engineer to another, the layout, shape, color of a PCB? Are you kidding me? These are arbitrary things.

Function over form, above all else, when it comes to critical system components such as an ESC.

The VESC6 is a strong product, why not act like it?

[b264]

It was sold in GBP currency. At the time (2018 April 09) a dual was £245 at a $1.43 = 1£ exchange rate so in the USA actual cost back then was $350.35.

[Kellag]

Breaking news, Frank is a dick to the surprise of no one

[Brenternet]

Does any of this matter enough to flare up another tired argument involving the same 5 people saying the same 5 things over and over and over and over again.

It’s in the past, it will happen again and no amount of salty faces on this community forum are going to change it.

Did Trampa wrongly enforce a patent? I don’t give a shit

Did Stewii stop making them because he got a reasonably worded letter from Frank? I don’t give a shit

Trampa is a business, they will do what is needed to turn a profit, Stewii is an individual who in the real world could not have been making much money here. The outcome of this was inevitable right?

Please let this tired bullshit pass into history. When you guys want to design a new esc make it a rectangle and ride off into the sunset.

[DerelictRobot]

Brent needs some attention guys. 1 like for 1 prayerz

[Trampa]

There are 100 ways to make a HW 6 derivate that looks entirely diffident. I have seen a lot of different HW 6 designs and none looked even sightly similar to the HW 6 we currently make.
There is zero need to go for the exact same design. I have no issues with competing products as long as they have their own design and use their own brand.

You designed your own remote and it had it’s own design. You asked for the Wand FW and it went public a short time after. You would look into it and make something else with it, re-mix it and strip it back and ad things and so on. You are a designer and you would use things to innovate. That is OS for me.

[mmaner]

@Brenternet

Does any of this matter enough to flare up another tired argument involving the same 5 people saying the same 5 things over and over and over and over again.

Too some of us it does. Its important for people to know that Frank and/or Trampa will do anything they can to shut down competition.

@Brenternet

Did Trampa wrongly enforce a patent? I don’t give a shit
Did Stewii stop making them because he got a reasonably worded letter from Frank? I don’t give a shit

There’s a lot of assumptions there that are not true.

@Brenternet

Stewii is an individual who in the real world could not have been making much money here.

So that makes it OK to harass him into quieting?

@Brenternet

Please let this tired bullshit pass into history

Sorry brother, can’t do it.

[torqueboards]

1 like for prayers @Brenternet

[mmaner]

@Trampa

There are 100 ways to make a HW 6 derivate that looks entirely diffident.

But function dictates design. You want someone to make a shoe box sized VESC just to appease you? Or maybe melon shaped, that good? Ridiculous.

What you want is people to spend more money on the design and then manufacturing so that the overall cost in increased, that makes your obscene price seem more reasonable.

[Luke]

You wrote it to Frank right? He started this whole bulshit saying things about person knowing that is not arround any more. It was nice write by @Zach about esk8 history and Frank just couldn’t stay away.

[Trampa]

@mmaner

But function dictates design.

That is wrong. Only a short time back in history your mobile phone tech would have occupied the space of a room. People with vision made it fit into your trouser pocket.

[Brenternet]

@mmaner

Its important for people to know that Frank and/or Trampa will do anything they can to shut down competition

Perhaps the issue here for me personally is that I come from a world where this is run of the mill normal shit. Every day.

@mmaner

There’s a lot of assumptions there that are not true

There are no assumptions there

@mmaner

So that makes it OK to harass him into quieting

No it’s not OK at all, I’m not condoning anything, I am asking why it’s necessary to taint our community discussions on a daily basis with very common knowledge. Nothing is going to change, vote with your wallet.

FWIW I don’t think the vesc6 is obscenely priced at all, there’s a lot more to a product than the sum of it’s parts.