Yes, i will get the axle lathes first so i can 3d print and mount everything to them.
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Still waiting for your two decks, so i have to see what dimensions i have to make the baseplate. When i know that i will determine the places for the holes
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Remember these Grom Biz Trucks? 10 to 15 years ago:
SMR 10 years ago on Grom Biz trucks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-QIE4Y80j4
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So there seems to be a lot of hate about this and I didnāt really want to get into the nitty gritty details. But since I feel like Iām being pushed into a corner, I need to give more back story.
On the surface, my design and moeās design may look the same. I rest assure you that they are not the same.
-
Moe uses thinner, regular rods
I use a splined axle -
Moe uses a round collet with a thin little plate to connect the heim to the axle
I use a splined cnc milled plate made of chromoly steel. -
Moe takes plates of chromoly, draws on them, cuts them and hammers and welds them to make a base plate
I cnc mill a base plate from 6061 aluminum -
Moe welds a nut to the base plate he makes to attach the center end link
I add threads into the base plate to attach the center end link -
Moe attaches the links using bolts and nuts
I add threads to both my heim plate and base plate and use screws with nylon inserts to resist vibrations
And thereās many more details that are different.
The rest of the parts in both of our designs are off the shelf parts.
I do NOT use the same dimensions of anything (rod lengths, rod angles, heim plate angles, distance between the heim plates, base plate length, distance between the links on the base plate).
So you can say this is Brandons design, but I will argue with you all day that it is not.
He came up with a set of principles, much like the inventors of the rpk/tpk truck. Today, thereās around a dozen manufacturers making this style of truck, and due to that, they are the trucks of choice for most skateboarders. Their popularity is in part due to the availability because many manufacturers make them.
However, they do NOT use the same design. Some have split, removable rods, some at cnc milled, some are casted, they have different shapes and rod lengths ect. They all work on the same principle, but they do not use the same design.
That being said, lets look at why I am doing thisā¦
Itās been over 2 years since I first road one of moes boards at the Evolve world cup and set a track record for the fastest lap ever recorded. I realized then how much potential these trucks had.
Fast forward 2 years and how many people around the world are riding them? A small handful. They just arenāt publicly available. John has messaged moe asking to make some more for the hummie hubs to sell with them and didnāt get anywhere. So the logical solution to to make my own.
My motivation from this is not to profiteer off of this, itās to design what I think is the most solid, over built 3 link turner money can produce and get it in serious eskaters hands. I could take a dozen short cuts that would save money, but I donāt. If I were about the money, I could make these as cheap as possible and charge 5x the cost like china does.
Currently, it costs significantly more for me to make a set with my design than it does for moe to make a set with his design. Maybe my design is overkill. But I donāt want to ever see one fail. Everything is super thick chromoly steel except the base plate to save some weight. And even that is 6mm thick.
Now as to me doing this without moes approval. I first asked him over a year ago when he was going to get these into production. He didnāt tell me about any plans then. I mentioned to him that I wanted to make these and sell them with the hummie hubs. I got silence. And then over a month ago, I sent him my first designs before anyone else saw them. I thought I was clear in my intentions and again, silence.
I have since talked to him about it over the phone for almost 2 hours and he has relaid his concerns and his personal goals.
This is not happening behind his back with the intention of taking his design and making a quick buck.
This is to provide a product that is not currently available to the masses.
The reality is that Iām not the first to want to use these principles and I wonāt be the last.
You could argue that every person who made a wheel after the first guy invented the wheel is stealing his design. But you canāt expect every person after the first will need to reinvent the wheelā¦
I have no intentions of stepping on moes toes or anything malice. As far as moe has relayed to me, he has no intention of EVER making 3 link turners to sell to the public for the hummie hubsā¦ Iām simply trying to offer something that doesnāt exist.
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Well the forum seems to think that copying other peoples work is completely fine and itās just ābusinessā. The difference is Iām offering something that isnāt publicly available. Iāve been waiting for moe to produce production quality 3 link turners for some time and it hasnāt happenedā¦ Maybe this will be motivation?
I consider Brandon to be a good friend. And he invented the 3 link turner, itās his movement, and Iām not trying to hijack his movement. I want to see it grow and getting these into peoples hands is how you do it.
I donāt give a shit about profits. If I wanted to get rich, eskate is a terrible business to go into. Itās very niche, itās hard to get to the bulk quantity you need to get good production costs, and you have to cut corners everywhere to be profitable and competitive. The only exception to this rule is lacrioux, and you see their prices as a result. Everyone else doesnāt care if you break your neck with their stuff or not.
I do this for the same reason John does, which is to make cool stuff and offer it to the community.
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Thanks for the explanation, clears up a lot. Just to be double sure, Moe is not okay with you making many sets to sell, right?
I can see where youāre coming from, and the design is way cool and I want a set, but this situation is super weird especially with you owning a set from Moe (purchased? gifted?). I wish you guys could find some middle ground and make this a win-winā¦
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At this point, idk where he stands. My conversation with him on the phone concluded with him telling me whatever I do is separate from him and before I sell anything, to properly test it for safety so it doesnāt leave a bad first impression in the 3 link turner movement. At no point did he tell me he doesnāt want me to make and sell them. I explicitly told him via text before hand that I would pack up and take my losses if he tells me he doesnāt want me to make themā¦ He has yet to say " i donāt want you to sell those publicly".
In the past, heās been encouraging to those who want to design and make their own 3 link turner. Maybe the sale part is whatās different?
I would be fine giving profits back to moe even as again, this isnāt about money. At the same time, legally, without him getting patents on this (if itās even patent-able in a way that I couldnāt work around) and suing me, he legally couldnāt stop me. I wouldnāt want it to resort to that though.
I think as a community, it brings up a morality question as well as to what is ok and not ok. And when is it okā¦ Is it ok for people to sell a product based off of a design that someone else made? Is it ok to take ip (aka unity) to another company (aka lacrioux) and use it to profit (aka stormcore)?
In the latter situation, because of what enertion did, I think most people would say hell yea (as I feel). But what crosses the line? Thereās a lot of grey.
Does it mean that because moe came up with the mechanics of 3 link turner, that heās the only one that can sell them? By that logic, Jacob is the only one allowed to sell hub motors, and John and enertion selling them is immoralā¦
Iām fine selling these at very minimal profit to recuperate addition expenses, like interest on loans needed to fund this, gas to drive to the post office, ect. Again, itās not about the money. But I think this brings up a lot of moral questions, and in the end who wins and who loses? If the inventor of a product is the only one who can sell it, then is that really capitalism?
If Brandon tells me right now he doesnāt want me to sell them, I wonāt. Itās that simple. Cause I respect what he has accomplished and I donāt want to cross a friend like that.
If thatās the case, I will only make a few sets for me and close friends to ride on. Is that whats best for the community and 3 link turner movement though?
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This definitely cleared up a lot of what I personally was wondering.
I think the best bet for you and Moe would be for you to create a machinable 3link using one of his previous generations that is tried and true and stick with that while profits are split between you and Moe. Then Moe can use the money to further expand on the 3link design and create even better and more improved 3links.
But Iām also pretty stupid sometimes 
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full public disclosure at bottom of post
personally Iād hate for this concept to become buried in a pissing match, I like your attitude, to produce these for the masses, and profit only enough to recover costs, or just making some for friends.
forgive me for sticking my butt in here, BUTT itād be sweet to get this 'sich worked out man to manā¦ I āthinkā i understand @MoeStooge 's position, as stated i believe heās wanting, as a minimum, this concept extensively tested prior to public consumptionā¦ Is that true, @MoeStooge ?
What exactly are you claiming as your IP?
The name? (nah, 3-links show evidence of prior art)
The entire concept of controlling an axle and articulation with 3 links? (probably not)
The name association of @evoheyaxās concept with your concept? (i can understand and sympathize)
@evoheyax has offered a licensing fee, and I hope whatever roadblocks or hurdles are in front I hope you guys can move forward either separately or togetherā¦
Disclosure:
Itās no big secret, Iāve been toying around and designing an adaptation of @MoeStooge race trucks, based entirely on pictures he has graciously posted on the internet. I have made inquiries about purchasing SRB products and was even offered a truck set for purchase, (thanks buddy) I had to turn these down due to my unforeseen economic future. But I would gladly purchase at a better time.
however, this will not dissuade me from designing and fabricating a similar set in the future.
I am not affiliated in any other way with @MoeStooge or @evoheyax
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Imo thereās nothing wrong with you picking up production of these if Moe does not want toā¦ Once someone makes an innovative product it goes 1 of 4 ways: 1. They donāt say anything about it and keep it to themselves. This is out the window. 2. They patent it, then wait to sell the patent for profit. 3. They patent it, then arrange for production for sale. 4, They donāt do anything and it gets copied for sale.
If Moe is planning to make these for production and sale, then I would say youāre digging into his profits, but afaik he still makes these one off at a time, which is cool but not a scalable production, whereas your design is, however expensive it may be, there is a customer base for this, and if he wants a cut of the profit for the design, then maybe, but if he wants no one to produce these but has no plans of his own to scale production, that is strangeā¦
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Iām not going to speak for Moe as I donāt know the full story but I believe he has the designs etc to make it production readyā¦ I could be wrong though.
I have faith @evoheyax and @MoeStooge will work it out.
These arenāt really relevant aside from the bushing location on the later models.
Grombiz are essentially just channel trucks.
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If you think soā¦there is actually a lot to learn from them in this discussion but it does depend a lot on how an individual looks at things and goes about solving problems.
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I just donāt want people to get confused because it looks like theyāre operating similarly. Theyāre not.
The springs make for a similar appearance, but arenāt guiding the axle at all like a linkage. Theyāre only a thing because they hadnāt figured out bushings yet.
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I use them to understand the relationship between deck lean, axle path and effective base plate angle
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I find it particularly interesting how far back there is evidence of āprior artā of bushing placement on the axle, and adjustable base plates
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Their bushing design was hard to understand and did not last long
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Thereās more than a few.
This is the Revo Truck, for kiteboarding.
Its also adjustable, and has a better execution for bushings.
Image sourece:
https://www.extremekites.com.au/topic/15944-revo-trucks-service It has pictures of it disassembled too.
Almost any new truck idea you can find some older version of it.
wackyboards.blogspot.com has a load of that sort of thing.
Hereās one I just found on pavedwave
Not exactly the same, but it will have similar bushing engagement.
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Makes you wonder why dkp and tkp became the most popular when there was no lack of innovative designs
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