I think both have their pros and cons and I completely agree with this statement
3 Likes
The two main things that would greatly improve esk8 racing performance would be Ackerman Steering and front brakes.
4 motors = 4 problems. Any weight hung on a hanger becomes āunsprungā weight. It slows hanger control and hanger recovery time.
Removing motors from hangers would be my #3 performance improvement.
The fastest cars in the world on an oval groomed dirt track are Rwd.
The fastest cars in the world on a closed road course are Rwd.
The Quickest cars 0 to 340mph are Rwd
Loose dirt or rough type surfaces where grip is limited AWD is the way.
Unlike automobile racing, we are not limited by static weight transfer. We ave the ability to tranfer weight with a super computer, the human brain.
3 Likes
The only reason I am advocating for 4WD is front brakes actually. The only implementation of front brakes that I saw on a raceboard is front motors.
Technically MBS sells a disc brake kit but I donāt think that would be beefy enough for racing, plus having my second hand control a wired in lever sounds a bit weird.
If someone made a brake system, that ideally used the same electronic throttle that the receiver spits out, and had the power to block the front tires, Iād happily switch my front motors out for that.
Although at 2WD it would probably start making sense to switch the reachers to inrunners as well. Only having to buy 2 ESCās for 350$ ish each sounds a lot more reasonable than 4.
7 Likes
I strongly believe that torque control is much slower than the speed control we have with the HW escās - not for power but for precision reasons.
4 Likes
can you elaborate on this more cause vesc also has duty control mode that you can switch to in i believe the ppm settings which im kinda tempted to try.
1 Like
The Vesc duty cycle control is nowhere near as smooth as far as Iām aware.
I donāt want to get too far into the details of exactly why itās so much faster, cuz thatās getting into the secret sauce too much. But Iāll just say itās significantly more precise.
the foc duty_cycle control mode itās not the right typeā¦ it doesnāt do braking IIRC. but would be good if someone did do the work to make switching to a duty_cycle control mode on FOC to see if we feel those same differences in fidelity.
further, my understanding is the vesc BLDC commutation mode uses a duty_cycle control mode that does brake. (hearsay tho, keep meaning to try to read the code or test and understand)
1 Like
@Tony_Stark are you able to speak on this? youāre probably the most knowledgeable person on the topic that i know
AWD gives you the ability to manage bias for accel grip and braking grip, potentially you can use that to power slide when grip is limited. Since we canāt countersteer, I see that being safer.
Cars have a different variable with down force, pointing out that changes some things. When the GTR was introduced at bathurst it was unbeatable and banned, in a series with pretty minimal downforce. LMP1 are AWD and are faster than F1 at different parts of the track, even with less down force. Generally the fastest track cars are AWD now with electrics such as the VW IDR, but down force allows that to be different with something like the mcmurtry spierling fan car. F1 is limited by their rules just as any race series, you see the real magic in the one-off time attack machines. Just something to consider when your getting inspiration from them.
Imagine inboard motors, with LSD diffs and stub axle front steering 
6 Likes
Never tested it and never plan to.
Iām not a fan of duty control at all. Itās one of the biggest reasons I canāt enjoy riding any eskate with a non vesc esc. Your throttle deadband increases with speed and when you find the throttle again the torque comes on more aggressive than current control.
The only exception imo is the Evolve Diablo series. Somehow theyāve made duty feel really nice. Possibly just PID tuning but maybe theyāre blending it with current control
4 Likes
Would have been l peace of mind as a retailer removing all that potential user error with vesc tool though.
Iāve been talking to Kamen, heās able to adjust ramping in the zmote with firmware. Hoping he can do different versions and then with punch control in the escs it should hopefully be nice and user friendly.
2 Likes
You guys play with startup boost on vesc tool?
Thatās how i get more āpunchā from the vesc
For sure. Weāre aiming to get rid of Vesc tool with the Mach One app.
Out of the first 14 Genesis spec boards we built, 4 people accidentally over-wrote their vesc settings and needed help.
6 Likes
This is only for BLDC mode no?
1 Like
I loved my 4wd for the brakes for sure. But true is the turning was just more difficult. I was investigating articles about 4wd racing cars and they always introduced some kind of power ratio between front - rear but there is always this widening of radius on the exit disadvantage. You could probably default to 0 front power on exit but then its a question if the 4wd just for brakes makes senseā¦ maybe yes, who knows.
All I can tell now is that I was scared to go back to 2wd but the Max setup simply delivers the power, more than enough. Jumping off the start enough. Especially with max4 the smoothness is maybe better than vesc for me, super accurate yet smooth (I am not using too much customization yet). I was really suprised how smooth the control is to the milimeter.
Bigger āissueā for me is that the consumption is so high that the Sonic power is there for few laps until battery goes down to 90% and then you just feel the super ultra kick is not there anymore. But thats not something you can fix with esc. But that is issue only when you dont have time to charge for long track days.
I cant say much about theoretics, it might be that there is a 4wd setup that could work better. But I have now considerably better times on all tracks compared to may previous 4wd. My 4wd was lacking the ultra power so when I see @Dinnye board its much more powerful for sure. What I like about the Max setup is that it seems super robust and easy to plug-in.
Originally I wanted to do 20s 4wd setup on Stooge chasis aswell, but currently I dont have any need. I just have more than enough power and with enough grip the braking works good enough with the ability to use the front wheels for turning throughout the turn, so it seems like a good trade. Especially when I see how hard is to keep a vesc setup on the top notch power without technical issues.
But I am excited to see 2025 season as it seems there are so many super powerful boards now and the evolution is still going full speed 
11 Likes
But true that Mcmurtry is an RWD itself. Its insane machine.
3 Likes
I think for eskate at least, thatās partially because our steering has a huge scrub radius. When you turn and apply torque, you are trying to push one wheel and pull the other over a significant distance that you are fighting the machine. If we had steering knuckles with stub axles, scrub radius would be way shorter and the wheels wouldnt fight the torque as much in steering since they would be almost pivoting on the spot.
3 Likes
