20s Little FOCers on stooge SRB v5#1

For low end torque exactly, you can run enough amps on the reachers that nothing can give you more acceleration other than laying down sugar syrup on the asphalt…

And higher speed power (over 20mph - 30km/h) is just gonna be battery current limit, at which point what motor you run doesn’t matter at all as long as it doesn’t actually hit thermal throttle. Your ESC and battery matters only. Unless you get something like a G300 you’d be limited to 16kW for 20S 2WD and up to 22-24kW for 4WD depending on what bias you like.

Sure reachers get hot from iron losses. But you aren’t putting down more power at the moment on max4 than what a reacher setup could do. Max4 combo techically goes a little higher than that 22-24kW though, but actually putting that down is crazy. Not sure if anyone logged over 24kW so far…

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Id argue That running reachers on a short track is more of an advantage compared to someone running a RC Setup (inrunners) due to Launch Control and how much easier throttle control is.

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It’s like 35C here and 90% humidity haha

yeah, i meant geared for 50mph, I should be able to spin all wheels at low speed. That’s should be up to about 25 mph on the new battery, maybe a hair more

I’ve wondered about the throttle control. If we’d have all gone from pre-built straight to RC it would likely not feel that foreign. All those skate escs are duty cycle control.

Still pretty Impressive Id love to Watch that happen in real time

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Pre Built what? Most all Prebuilt boards Ive seen have a piece of toast for a ESC I dont think it would have prepared anyone for a RC setup.

that part stands here as well in Denmark, even though the temperature doesn’t hahaha

With 4WD though I don’t think I could overheat it even at 35C. Unless maybe something like tef1 that’s only high speed straights, but I don’t think I’d even enjoy that kinda race. And we don’t even have anything like that here to try.

That said I didn’t bother hooking up my sensors for a while after I built the 4WD, then heard the rumors of the V6 sensors being problematic when pushing high power, so I continued being lazy. I actually don’t have any temp readings for the 4WD. Other than that I know I wasn’t able to overheat the rear in 2WD and the front is cooler so probably nothing to worry about :sweat_smile: And it’s also not cooked :sweat_smile:

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I’ve had guys jump from a hadean to my v5 and ride it easier than what I did first time coming from vesc

Yeah, well I have the same setup as you in the rear, just geared lower and on 16s. And it gets up to 90°c with breaks in-between at our short track stuff. The esc actually runs okay though. My cutoff start is 110 and ends at 125 because of the way vesc filters it. Even just sitting in the sun the motors are at 50c :frowning:

While @sugandese max 4 sits at 55 in the session…

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Maybe you are geared for too low speed and not pushing enough amps? Honestly no clue. Mine genuinely doesn’t get too hot, not on the 65-70 km/h gearing, not on the 95ish km/h gearing (9"…). Although haven’t measured recently I think just from touching the motors which is pretty subjective it’s actually been feeling a little hotter on the linnpowers than it used to on the 9", same ratio on both…

Did you adjust the thermistor beta value to 3950K as it should be for reachers perhaps?

Yeah. I’m not too concerned that mine gets hotter than yours with all the different variables, but @sugandese and I riding together in the same session shows me that the inrunner setup does every aspect better, especially heat. If your theory tells you otherwise, then there’s something missing. Your math the says the opposite of what is happening, and the gap is huge so I don’t know the answer.

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I’m convinced that for the most part, the way the majority of people configure vesc is significantly inefficient.

The hobbywing escs and motors would be highly tuned to run efficiently together, where vesc and outrunners slapped together by hobbyists will not be optimised to the same level.

I don’t think it’s to say that vesc/outrunners can’t be optimised, but I doubt the majority of us are doing it anywhere near as well as it could be done

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100%

The temperature difference might be just iron losses and cooling, even though it’s huge. Maybe they also have a higher copper to weight ratio compared to the reachers. Unless you run it on something crazy like 16S it probably has a good bit less iron losses compared to reachers. Or maybe the spec sheet is not accurate and the resistance is lower than specified (which definitely could be the case considering the size and KV to be honest).

I agree the motors themselves are better. I think a 500A or 600A phase 300A battery capable vesc should be able to drive it with comparable power to the stock ESC though, maybe with a slightly worse efficiency, that’s what math tells me anyways without doing cross product comparisons. I wish we had some juicy logs though!

Also just going inrunners is not the end all be all. Hobbywings are great inrunners in my opinion, which seems to be confirmed with field testing with good temps and power. Mamba and SSS etc you can blow them up still in a max5 ish size.

That said reachers are still a good choice for most people especially 4WD. If you want 4WD the stock ESCs are not viable, ESCs are much more expensive, motors also more than reachers, gearing is not what I’d consider ideal. It’s a money pit that most people honestly don’t need if their reacher build ends up avoiding the iron loss trap. And reachers can put down good power under the right conditions.

I wish hobbywing inrunners would be available with some options in the 200-400 KV range. After that if we had an extra year or two of VESC development, which would hopefully bring down the price of VESCs that can drive the lower KV versions into a reasonable price bracket, they would actually be the best option probably without being unreasonable in some ways.

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( ~27.3v inc. sag. @ 8s on xlx2)

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Why does it have to be vesc? Admittedly I think I’m gonna struggle to better the times I did with my 4wd (skill and confidence issue) but Reggie and Mario have proven they can towel everyone in the world with rwd only RC escs.

Theres no disputing the Hobbywing combos are more powerful (or have more headroom) run cooler, are more reliable and simpler to setup.

quote=“sugandese, post:546, topic:78315”]
Reggie and Mario have proven they can towel everyone in the world with rwd only RC escs.
[/quote]

To add Inrunner R/C esc users;

@davidpilny 2024 XERace points champion https://www.xerace.com/

@Mbrady 2024,23,22 esk8 con pro champ

@Ruxx AVS 2024 champ
@MarioChacon 2024 electrify racing league points champ
Tef1 Champ,
Ruxx and Mario on “ONE” inrunner and R/C esc.

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They are exceptionally skilled riders with a lot of experience on similar hardware.

I believe that if you gave Mario and Reggie a well tuned 4wd with their remote of choice and enough power, and they took the time to really feel out how to get the most out of 4wd, what bias they like, and they ran with it for a while even if it felt weird for the first few sessions, they could be even faster. That’s because no matter how sticky your tires are, physics just says having braking power in the front (whatever bias you may prefer) can offer higher total braking grip, or at least make it way easier to utilize the same braking grip. RWD seems to work great braking on BRPs, but if you are on an inferior tire or just a surface that isn’t that sticky, you are definitely giving up some potential. Even in perfect conditions 4WD should move the maximum possible braking grip higher, giving you more options to try different lines and the ability to only brake later even on the same line - I believe 4WD is an advantage on any track that has short - medium track turns. Long track probably doesn’t help as much.

Also I just don’t want to deal with duty cycle control personally. I want smooth torque control, because I believe it helps me be smoother at high power, which ultimately results in better confidence in the setup and myself, and better lap times. Duty cycle control works for many, I personally don’t want to learn it though. I think torque control is more intuitive.

And lastly there’s little nuances like torque vectoring and such, only possible to implement when receiver pwm directly controls torque, or if you have an open source ESC that you can command in ways other than PWM. I’ll be implementing it for my VESC setup this summer. I believe that’s another way to utilize grip more efficiently. I believe either torque vectoring or a locked / limited slip differential goes a long way in improving the ability to put down power in a turn. The SSS had a locked diff and I think that was a brilliant idea that wasn’t too hard to implement. That said, while I haven’t tried a locked diff, in theory it should make turning more effort, while torque vectoring can be used to give a power steering effect. Not sure if the locked diff can actually be felt or not, but might be worth a try putting that single motor setup on the GTA or V6 chassis if clearances allow? A locked diff setup with power steering effect sounds pretty dope.

I foresee the longer term future on 4WD with torque vectoring. I think inrunners are part of it, but lower KV would be great so they’d be easier to drive. Then it can be made high voltage as well. But it also needs high amp VESC prices come down a bit more to really start making sense.

Or if hobbywing made a max4 or max5 ESC where pwm controls phase amps directly just like on vesc, with a comparable smoothness to vesc, and the ability to make my smart pwm splitter that does torque vectoring, I’d be all in on that one and ready to jump ship from VESC.

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I’m gonna reeiterate my opinion here.
This really just depends on what you first learned high powered boards with. the switching from one to the other is hard.

:stuck_out_tongue:

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