These have 2/3 better energy mass density and 1/3 better volumetric density than the best cylindrical cells!
10S1P 20Ah Licerion: 764Wh, 1580g = 3.48lbs in only 737cc!
81x91x10mm, 158g, 20Ah @ 3.82V nominal. Rated for 10A continuous charge, 40A continuous discharge, 100A discharge peak. That’s only 73.7cc.
To put that into perspective, that’s slightly more than the weight of 3x 30Q cells (3x48g = 144g), which would deliver only 9Ah at a lower 3.6V nominal voltage. 6x 30Qs would deliver 90A continuous, 18Ah, weigh 288g and occupy 99cc.
In a typical 10S4P 30Q pack, the cells weigh 1920g, occupy 842cc in a single flat layer, and deliver 12Ah.
10 of these cells in a 2x5x1 single layer would weigh 1580g, occupy 728cc and deliver 20Ah.
They currently only produce them for use in their cubic proprietary battery packs, but that won’t last.
This would cut 3lbs from the weight of a typical board, and cut the thickness of the pack in half.
I’ve begged to be able to purchase samples, will report back if successful, and update as news of their wide release is made public.
Those are the cell’s I’m talking about. Just a high-level explanation of how they are constructed. I’m still waiting for the data sheet I requested this am.
That’s not a heatsink… It’s simply a stack of flat pouch cells suspended by rods. The box on top is their bulky BMS.
Yes, the site is light on details… They are not selling these yet, and want your personal deets before they will even show you a data sheet. This sort of site is typical for products currently under development, only partially protected by patent. No word on price either. If premium cylindrical power currently costs $300/KWh ($4/cell for Samsung 30Q in quantity), I’d gladly pay 2x that for these specs. That prices a 20Ah 10S pack at $450-$500. People pay that now for 10S4P 30Q packs.
IMO there is no sudden jump in one set of battery specs without giving up something else. The info sheet for those cells say it requires compression (which means very specific compression) and that, depending on usage, you can get up to 1,000 cycles. To my ears this means you can get much less than that depending on how they are used.
A ceramic polymer layer sounds quite delicate so mounting might be critical. This adds weight and lowers any energy/power density numbers.
I suspect the price will be quite high along with the MOQ. You can’t build a cell with high performance without a matching price.
”Sion Power has developed three levels of protection to enable its Licerion lithium metal batteries — chemical and physical protection within the cell, and physical protection at the pack level.” To me this sounds like the cell might only be available at the pack level. This increases profits for them and ensures the cells are mounted and protected the way they want them to be.
They will want them only used in fully protected (physically and electrically) battery packs to prevent their cells from being mentioned in the news when someone’s project goes up in smoke.
If someone created a “hard pack” for PEV use and could place a large enough order then they might be available to the esk8 community. But costing how much?
Other tech is making its way out of the labs too, solid state cells for example, and could be an option for esk8 use in a few years. But for now, IMO, the latest&greatest will only be available to the large EV manufacturers, energy storage system companies, etc.
All pouch cells are supposed to be housed with some sort of compression for max life. This includes the Lipo pouches used in RC stuff, and the batteries used in Evolve boards for the first 5 years. A plastic hard shell is enough, as would be sandwiching the cells between the bottom of the deck and bottom of a hard enclosure.
My Evolve battery gave up the ghost after 3 seasons, about 300 charge cycles, and would cost $500 to replace. That’s not exactly stellar.
Say nay all you like, but this new chemistry/construction is a significant improvement.
The 40Ah LTO cells currently go for about $60ea, but are only 2.3-2.4V nominal = 92-96Wh . If these 20Ah 3.82V cells went for the same $60ea, I’d gladly pony-up $600 for a pack that weighs 3 POUNDS less than the next best alternative. That’s only $50 more than a well-made 18650 pack of similar capacity.
Yes, you’d still need a BMS, but building with tabbed pouches like this is beyond simple… I’ve been riding with an 8ah booster made from 10x Lipo Pouches where all of the cell connections are made with stanless steel binder clips… NO SOLDER (save where the balance wires and main output wires are soldered to copper strips… The strips are held between 2 tabs by just the clips, protected with Kapton tape.) I’ve ridden probably 500mi with this pack, on 3 different decks, beat the hell out of it, and the only issue I ever had was a broken balance wire I’d accidentally pinched when closing the lid of the box.
So, I’m excited… Just wanted to share the find here.
I agree. Just mentioning this because the ceramic layer might have very, very specific requirements for mounting and compression.
I don’t want to take anything away from any of the wonderful advancements in battery tech being worked on now. I only point out a few things that I feel could interfere with these being available for esk8 use.
I agree! I have a build in mind using pouch cells.
I suspect they will be much, much more expensive than any of the commodity cells we can buy now but prices always come down as the tech matures and manufacturing volume increases. Using cells like these is indeed a wonderful thing to think about though! I am no less excited than you are as I am a huge fan of efficiency and tight integration of all the components of a build. Using these cells would be incredible.
My excitement is just being tempered some by my experience with the battery industry. I am truly hoping that I am completely wrong and that these cells are affordable, sold loose, and available soon. I will definitely be an early customer if that happens.
Same here. Thank you for posting! Please don’t feel my thoughts were any sort of criticism of your actions or the technology.
Seeing as you’re interested in this facet of esk8 building, have you come across any LTO cells that are smaller than those huge Redbull can 30-40A monsters that can handle 15A continuous draw?
I’ve been looking pretty hard, was initially excited about the 18650 size with legs like a capacitor (how easy would it be to simply solder a bunch of 'em to a PCB?) but found that they can’t handle heavy current for either charging or discharging (what’s the point?)
LTO in general have worse power density for volume and mass than either LiIon (Cobalt) or LiPo, but the sex appeal lies in riding with a low capacity pack that can be charged from dead to full in a few minutes.
The Toshiba SiCb cells tick every box (including surplus / used availability) but since they are built inside metal CANS, they weigh a ton.
Somebody must sell a 5-10Ah LTO cell that handles rapid discharge / charging like the SiCb cells or huge cans.
I haven’t seen any LTO cells like that. But I don’t keep up with what’s widely available with that chemistry though. There are probably cells that fit those specs but the cost will be high IMO. There aren’t a lot of them available as loose cells for the end user. Well, a couple of the smaller China factories make LTO’s for anyone to buy but my experience has been that the material quality and cell construction matches the lower price, which makes perfect sense. This may or may not make a difference to the buyer but has to be compared to the performance and cycle life that can be gotten from the more expensive cells from the big manufacturers.
Salvaging great cells can be an option sometimes but the availability is often spotty and it depends on the condition of the pack and the skills of the salvager. Not an issue for a DIY’er with the right skills though.
Uber-fast charging means lots of heat and reduced cycle life too. Certain chemistries can be charged fast but all of them have a reduced life when you do. Not putting them down, it’s just how it works.
With P42A’s rated at up 8A for charging they can be hard to beat considering their price, performance, and availability. I can definitely see some specific builds making the best of high performance LTO cells though. Same for LFP, with increased safety too.
If you find LTO cells worth using it will be great to see what you do with them!
I know a123 has got similar pouch cells with good cycle life. While not as small, they might be worth a look into.
Not sure if it would be possible to buy the cells individually or if there would need to be a group buy for these types of things, but count me in if they wave the green flag!
I realize that fast charging shortens cycle life, but LTO cells are already capable of 10k+ cycles before serious degradation, and many are rated for stupidly fast charging… That’s half the point of using them IMO.
My goals re esk8 with LTO are totally different than with these new Licerion cells. I’d love to ride with a barely adequate LTO pack, which hopefully I can keep to ~3lbs, that I can charge from dead to full in only a few minutes. I’d love to be able to skate all day, but even with my largest pack board, I still stop at least once every 20-30min to take a break, have something to drink/eat, shoot the bull, etc. If these brief stops kept my puny LTO charged, I’d still be skating all day.
I’m willing to PAY for the privilege of skating a 23lb board vs a 27lb board, even if half the weight difference is in my backpack (the uber charger.) I’ll pay by having the LTO cells not last as long as advertised, and obviously pay a premium for the cells. If I got 1/10th the advertised 10k cycle life, I’m fine with that, if it means that I can charge at 55A
My interest in LTO and this strategy was renewed when someone on another forum showed-off their monster charger… Pumps out ~25A+ on a single 120V circuit, and something like 55A on either dual 120VAC or a single 240VAC circuit, weighs only 2.5lbs, and can be had used for about $100.
