Rapidly Adjustable 3-Link Truck, Compact (76-80mm 'thane) Gear Drive Project

Here’s a diagram to make sure you’re following the terminology.
Pivot axis is defined by the location of the two pivot centers, center of the bushing seat, and the center of the far joint. You probably already have a good grasp on that.

But for the axle offset, I’m meaning just the distance of the axle to the orange line of the pivot axis. So anywhere along that orange line would be zero offset, even though the axle is not directly over the pivot center in the bushings ( like it is in Stooge’s NKPs )

In terms of negative/positive rake, if the axle is on the board side of the pivot axis that’s negative rake, and if its on the roadside its positive rake.

Something like this will probably feel better.

Positive and negative rake does have to do with trail, but trail itself is an effect that happens on the ground plane. Where the pivot axis projects onto the ground and whether the contact patch of the wheel is in front or behind it.

Here’s my video where I talk a little about that.

You’re totally right in that by making the truck the way you are adding trail, which is the same thing as caster. The problem though is that trucks are mirrored front to back, so unless your front/rear trucks are different, while you may have have more stable positive trail on the front, you end up with unstable negative trail in the rear. And that having negative trail on the rear is pretty bad news.

Going back to the diagram. You can change your rake from negative to positive, and still keep that cantilevering suspension action. That cantilever action is also something that parallels design in kingpin trucks. Though, it is slightly different.
A TKP truck has an axle that is offset with lots of positive rake, but with the axle sitting between the pivot centers.
Which would be like this:
wWN5svN

More or less.
By moving your axle between the pivot centers you’re allowing more of the load to be taken off of the bushings and more of it to be taken up by the fixed pivot. Makes for a harsher ride the more weight you put on the fixed pivot, but the less pre-load the board side bushing receives which lets it perform better.
RKP trucks have the axle sitting beyond the pivot center, forming a cantilever like in your design. This is done because it easily provides a good geometry with low rake, but the added bushing pre-load can actually be problematic. This one of the issue which queenpin truck are largely designed to combat.
Like the Ronin Truck which uses a preloaded support pin.
image

I’m not going to say the cantilever is bad, because obviously RKPs all do it as well. But you do want to be aware that one of the big consequences is additional bushing preload, and hampered response from your boardside bushing. At the very least your boardside bushing will probably want to be made a lot harder than your roadside bushing, quite a bit more than ususal.

12 Likes

The First rendition for testing a 3 link hanger design was much like this. I appreciate the effort put into these. I think we initialy used a paris baseplate.



9 Likes

Power steering?

Or just a damper?

1 Like

Adjustable electronic steering dampening. Later discarded for a properly tuned setup. It was a crutch.

4 Likes

Well, I’m still going to imagine it making windshield wiper noises as it went down the track.

5 Likes

I remember right before you gave up on the crutch dampener, Mario and I destroyed the rod mounts within 5min of each other… Good times :grin:

2 Likes

Holy Shit! This post is like the Rosetta stone for me, thank you so much for taking the time to post those diagrams and drop that knowledge.

One thing I’m still not clear on is the part about pivot angle/bushing phasicity- would you be able to draw up a quick diagram on this?

I’ve got plans/designs to test different front to back trail lengths and another design that allows reversing the rear truck to introduce positive trail in the rear…lots to play with here to find the balance between stability/steering response.

You’re spot on here, I’ve already noticed it requires stiffer bushings as compared to other designs as this design asks much more of the bushings than RKPs. I plan on playing with the shape of the bushing cup/seat to alter how much the hanger interacts with the bushing during the cantilever motion- should be able to tune this quite a bit. There’s also the option of designing custom bushings, but that would definitely be way down the road for me.

2 Likes

Thanks again for posting about this so long ago, really awesome to follow the journey and watch your product progress!

How much of a difference did you notice when you went from mounting the radius rods to a tab welded on a shaft collar to directly mounting them to the shaft collar set screw hole?

I imagine the turning response would be more linear the closer the rodend is mounted to the axle and more “progressive” the further out it is mounted…I’m just curious to hear if you could feel much of a difference.

The further away the pick up point for the control rod is from the axle pivot center, the better control you have over axle rotation under heavy acceleration and braking.

As the distance between the axle rotation center and rod center increases the roll moment slows and becomes smaller. Rotational force on the radius rods is also reduced. Bar angles and lengths determine how linier or progressive the steering can be. A short rod responds quicker than a long rod. Rods moved closer to the pivot center respond quicker. Rods mounted on the base plate high and together have an increased swing moment.
There is a lot to get carried away in making bar angle Decisions.

5 Likes

A quick sketch of the geometry showing how it affects rake in this design. Interesting that it decreases the negative rake as the steering angle is decreased. @CHAINMAILLEKID The angle between the pivot axis and the kingpin ranges from approx 46 deg at the top to 64 deg at the bottom- is this the pivot angle to bushing angle phase correlation you were talking about?

Am I correct in thinking that these trucks have an effective angle range of 43.9 deg to 26.1 deg then based on the actual pivot axis? I think I was then mistaken by using the angle of the rod end linkage to describe the angle range as 50-30 deg previously.

1 Like

The weather has been improving here and I’ve been putting some miles on these things…overall, I’m pleased with their performance. I feel the suspension effect of the cantilevered hanger design and it makes a riding comfort difference on these little 76mm wheels. There’s no damping, so I doubt that it actually increases grip, but it feels smoother over rougher pavement/cracks.

I’ve been running the front at full angle (roughly 44 deg) and the rear at approx 1/2 angle (roughly 34-35 deg) and I haven’t been able to induce any sustainable wobbles up to approx 30 mph (max speed for this current iteration on an 8s battery).

I did find the thermal limit of my PLA+ gears yesterday during a little afternoon rip (ambient temp was low 80’s and cruising over relatively fresh asphalt). About four miles in, I started hearing some gear noise and then power began to suffer so I stopped and did a two mile walk-of-shame back to the home shop and found this:


By the time I made it home, the motors/gears had cooled and the PLA+ gear was immobilized d/t deformation. I’m actually impressed they lasted this long (roughly 50 miles if I had to guess, but most of those were at lower speeds on colder days), pretty sure I only used 3 perimeters on these prints as I was mostly just testing fitment.

I printed some new gears in Polymaker CoPA

And they came out pretty nice if I do say so myself

Black deformed gear on the left was the problem child, middle black gear is the new CoPA gear and the dark blue gear was the other PLA+ gear I replaced (you can see it was suffering some deformation as well, but it was still working when removed)



I gave the new gears a quick post-print conditioning (maybe slightly annealing) soak in an 80c water bath, pressed the bearings and pins in while it was warm and then installed straight onto the hanger. These nylon gears are noticeably quieter than the PLA+, that’s an added benefit. I took them out for a couple rips around the neighborhood today (temps in the mid 80’s fahrenheit) and they performed flawlessly. Last ride I came home and temp checked the motors at 65-70c at the outer shell (50c at the motor mount and heatsoaked steel hanger) and the gears were nowhere near soft/affected.

For science, I put a PLA+ sprocket and a PETG sprocket in the same 80c water bath with the CoPA gears. The PLA+ sprocket was a little soft, but not easily deformed- surprisingly. The PETG came out like an Al Dente noodle and was easily mushed

I’m finishing up a few changes to this design and will send files out for cutting soon. I’m increasing the hanger flange size a bit (3mm increase to trail/cantilever as a result) to accommodate Riptide Tall Chubby bushings

I’ve changed the motor mount as well so I can put 12-15t motor gears on the same set-up- much more reduction range in the same size package

And I’ve got a new mount that will be welded up from lasercut .188" steel and 1"x1.5" (.120"wall) rectangular tubing. The rear mounting holes are spaced a traditional 1.625" apart, but the front holes are wider to accommodate the front linkage mount mechanism. New linkage mount is also adjustable trom 45-25 degrees
New Mount Side


I’ll post back when I have more to report.

15 Likes

Pretty neat progress! Very interesting information about the durability of those different filaments

I’ve never tried Copa before, is it easy to get dialed in?

1 Like

Lowest warping nylon I’ve tried and the stuff is very durable.

I always dehydrate these hygroscopic filaments before I use them, even fresh from the factory and this has served me well.

I paint on some diluted Elmer’s glue to a 50c heated glass bed, 270c nozzle (hardened steel, so I run it toward the hotter end of the envelope) and keep the speeds low…I think it’s maxed at 40 mm/s for this nylon profile with no special tweaks that I can recall

At the end of the print, I throw the glass build plate (tempered glass) in the freezer and the part pops right off .

2 Likes

Thanks for the info! Do you use a real food dehydrator or something? I have one of those basic filament dryers but I don’t think it did much when I tried it out

1 Like

Just a cheap Amazon food dehydrator with the racks cut out

2 Likes

Haha nice technique. I’m going to try some of this COPA for structural parts in the future, maybe I’ll pick one up. Using the toaster is not gonna work bc it gets too hot lol

1 Like

This thing sucks

3 Likes

That thing is huge

1 Like

It can make astronaut ice cream sandwiches :joy:

OK back on topic, that Copa looks awesome and I appreciate your testing and feedback about your printed gears :call_me_hand:

3 Likes

I have had slightly better results with taulman 910. Prints came out a little stiffer and the wheel pullies lasted longer.
Might be moisture related as I had that in the oven for 24 hours vs the 5-6 on the CoPa before it got into the dry box ready to print. And there was a more noticeable amount of moisture in the CoPa.

The prints above looks like it had less moisture in it when printed compared to mine.

5 Likes