[Prototyping] High power VESC 6.4 variant

Oh shit, I’m not sure I fully agree with me either.

Looks like I was confusing an incorrect correlation between DC bias and ESR rather than the lower dielectric constant. Looks to be significantly less apparent in tants & alum elec.

With that said; are we seeing evidence of 63v elec alum caps not being sufficient to handle transients at 12S? I was under the impression that heat was the primary concern next to insulation as voltage increases, but if they’re operating at 80% rated voltage for the majority of the time, I wouldn’t think it to be a big concern.

Thanks for the input & discussion guys!

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Are we operating at 80% though when there is an inductive voltage transient every time a MOSFET switches off?

It’s so installation specific that I’m not sure if we can say anything general. Electrolytic caps are delicate and it doesn’t take a lot to zap them. They already have a limited life and any abuse, heat, or voltage spikes, will help to shorten that life. Yea, they have some self-healing characteristics for certain abuses but esk8 is an extraordinarily violent operating environment.

I sure wouldn’t use a 63V caps for 12S unless I was sure I had plenty of capacitance for the expected battery lead and PCB inductance and used other voltage spike suppression techniques. In fact, even with all that I would probably go with 75V minimum.

Operating near ratings is just never a good idea when reliability is a concern. There are just too many variables in each boards setup to assume anything (max voltage of inductive spikes, etc.).

Ripple current and the resulting heat, due to insufficient capacitance, can be a killer of electrolytics too. Add on what could be millions of inductive voltage spikes and tons of shock and vibration and perhaps we have a one-two-three combo that kills caps.

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Great info!

However I’m not sure we’ve seen a ton of evidence of caps failing on ESCs under these circumstances, unless there’s been major incident I’m unaware of.

I’m trying to properly size the issue, because while you say you wouldn’t use anything less than 75V, it would appear that 63V is sufficient enough to have been used in just about every major VESC based 12S design in recent years. Wouldn’t we see a lot more blown caps if that was a weak point?

I’m straying a bit into conjecture here, but all the same based on what we’ve seen so far in the real world I’m not sure it’s a huge issue.

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Either am I. :slightly_smiling_face: And I get what you’re saying.

But my approach to derating and thoughts on reliability are just the way I have always designed my products. By taking all failure mechanisms into account and designing conservatively I can prevent issues that might occur some time in the future. Especially in a case like this where the operating environment is uncontrolled and hostile.

While it does seem that 63V might be high enough for most 12S ESC use I hesitate to say it will be high enough to be ensure reliable operation of those caps in all setups.

I’m also not sure we can say that no ESC failure has been caused by damaged caps. I don’t know a lot about cap aging and damage mechanisms but they can be somewhere between 100% okay or completely blown with a popped top.

I believe there are scenarios where they are less effective or could even have blown an internal conductive path without popping their top. I know they can go very leaky (high self-discharge) and there might be damage that can be capacitance-reducing too, allowing voltage transients to rise to higher levels.

Something I would think about is one of the caps having a leg snap due to repeated bending or vibration. We now have a lot less capacitance taming the inductive spikes and the voltage rises. Do we have enough voltage rating headroom for that? Is that even a failure we want to survive (by paying for higher rated caps)? If yes, how? More caps? Higher voltage ratings? Just thoughts I have when designing.

In some cases I might just choose to use 63V rated caps. It depends on the client, the MSRP of the product, the marketing, the reputation of the company, and the size/weight/cost of the different cap options. I would sure be wanting to use the 75V cap though….with an appropriately low ESR, appropriately tight tolerance, appropriate temp rating…blah, blah, blah.

If we feel that something shouldn’t happen, that something shouldn’t fail, without a boatload of supporting testing then IMO we are setting ourselves up for a product reliability disaster. Maybe not now. Maybe not for quite a while. But it will happen at some point.

For my clients and I this is unacceptable. But I completely respect anyone’s decision to use components at closer to their ratings than I would. There’s no “correct” cap voltage rating, operating temperature rating, or vibration/shock tolerance/limit for caps used in an ESC. There’s just our personal design methodology/approach and any limits on cost, size, etc., that we choose to follow.

For me, I like to not worry as much about battery lead length and how close the leads are kept together (to minimize inductance) as others might have to. It leaves more time to worry about heating, vibration, etc. :grin:

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Hello

I have successfully soldered new PCB, based od newer VESC 6.5 design. IMU is tested and works, so IMU (MPU-9250) and FCC certified BT module (WT51822-S4AT) are integrated onboard, so no external modules are needed

There are 3 planned versions. They do not require PCB redesign, only change some parts

8S version:
IPLU300N04S4-R7 mosfets
10uF 50V 1210 capacitors, 50V electrolytic capacitors
SMBJ36A TVS
AD8418 current sense amplifiers
39k/2.2k voltage dividers

10S - 12S version
IPT007N06N mosfets
10uF 63V 1210 capacitors, 63V electrolytic capacitors
SMBJ51A TVS
AD8418 current sense amplifiers
39k/2.2k voltage dividers

13S - 16S version (REQUIRES CUSTOM FW)
IPT012N08N5 mosfets
4.7uF 100V 1210 capacitors, 75-80V electrolytic capacitors
SMBJ70A TVS
INA240A1DR current sense amplifiers
56k/2.2k voltage dividers

Note that higher voltage mosfets have higher RDSon (resistance)

These ESCs are hand soldered, so buyer can choose his own parts, or you can accept the challenge and assemble it yourself. Design files (in Autodesk Eagle) are fully open source.

I will test maximum output current this weekend

I never had any problems with 50V ceramic caps and 63V electrolytic caps when I used VESC 4.12 with 12S battery on my first Esk8. Only real problem was DRV8302 IC, that I had to replace once every 2 months.

VESC 6.5 LM5164 NRF51 V3 6032 IMU.zip (180.2 KB) VESC 6.5 LM5164 NRF51 V3 6032.zip (173.7 KB)

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Just joined and found this project, looks amazing! any updates on design or testing?

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I purchased two form him in july, they work really well!

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Do you still have components/PCBs in stock? would be interested in purchasing 2 units.

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Combien me reviendrait vous acheté 2 vesc complètement assambler merci beaucoup pour votre réponse

image

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What happened?

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Combien me reviendrait vous acheté 2 vesc complètement assambler merci beaucoup pour votre réponse

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Merci de dissiper ce malentendu

That is not even proper french :stuck_out_tongue:

Hello
This project is still active. Sadly, I had broken radius bone in my left arm and I was unable to do any soldering work for last 3 months

During healing time I designed 2 more modifications of the VESC 6.5 PCB

  1. mirrored PCB, where mosfets are from the bottom side (should be better for cooling inside aluminium case)

  2. dual vesc 6.5 PCB, where power electronics are on the sides and controllers in the middle, something like vesc unity, but with 2 separate STM32 controllers connected internally via CAN bus

I have high hopes for this dual VESC PCB, since it is smaller than 2 separate controllers

When everything is tested, I will release PCB files (as usual) and I hope this will be a succesfull project with a lot of happy customers

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Sorry to hear about your arm! Hope you heal well :slight_smile:
Some questions:

Do you have the BoM in stock? so many components that are due to arrive 2022/23 (DRV and MCU biggest problems, you’re running separate gatedrives so guess that helps) I’ve designed my own controllers for fun as well but I realised I wont be able to assemble them xD

Have you tested and verified the push to start circuit?

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roll to start

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Kick to start

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Anything but “push”

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=push+to+start&t=canonical&iax=images&ia=images

https://www.google.com/search?q=push+to+start&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwic8-fR1_bzAhVMVc0KHZYLAd4Q_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1920&bih=970

Push to start describes the opposite of roll to start.

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Maybe we can settle for spin to start? lmao

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