PROJECT: ENDGAME a karting inspired raceboard's development

One of the options is G300 which I quite like, the rest of the readily available options I am not a fan of due to cost reasons. But also kinda hesitant to pull the trigger on G300s because I’m working on something non-VESC with a friend of mine. Not sure if anything will actually come of it yet but if it does I might be running that. That’s a long term project, we are working on the first prototype and are yet to spin a motor… Slowly but surely progressing though. Very far from running anything in a skateboard.

If this prototype goes well we would scale things up and eventually run them in the skateboards. The bottleneck in scaling up is the 110V rated current sense amplifier… That ESC and a 24S5P 50PL pack (charging until 4.0V per cell) on 280KV 56154 inrunners and a double stage gear drive would be crazy. Couple that with the kart wheels, dualities, and the swingarm chassis, nothing would come close even. It’s gonna be a long term process though.

Saving up the money for all the new shiny parts will take a while for sure so I do have time to think about it / see how our prototypes go / maybe even see new products enter the market that do what I need.

5 Likes

I might be able to get away with rear only G300 and still increase battery amps in the front so I could gain a bit more braking still on a better battery because the front one is definitely heating less… but only on reachers. When I do upgrade the rest of the electronics setup they would become the biggest bottleneck by far.

Also I would prefer to have rock solid reliability, and while the D100S wasn’t the worst in that regard, it definitely isn’t perfect. I definitely don’t want to repeat what happened right before the Prague race. Nothing’s worse than being at an event swapping ESCs when I should be on the track…

4 Likes

Tonight’s session I brought my heelside single lap down to 12.66, which is enough for 2nd place on the leaderboard! Combined time 0.13 behind Reggie.

Interestingly I messed up the line quite a lot in my fastest lap, it definitely shows room for improvement. Still find it hard heelside to be smooth and hard on the throttle at the same time, but both of those techniques are needed for the best lap.

Also brought my heelside 3 lap time down to 13.05+12.73+12.96=38.74
Plus the 38.01 toeside brings it to 76.75 combined, which is 0.20 shy of 2nd place in the 3 lap leaderboard.

Then I did a short toeside session as well on half battery and did 12.50 with some tighttt lines.

Now all that’s left is to gain another 0.14 before Reggie has a chance to get out on the track again!

10 Likes

Aaaand today I have 1st place with a 12.51 heelside time! Also improved 3 lap time so got 2nd place there.

12 Likes

Maybe I missed something, but what ended up being the fix for the poor acceleration? Was it just the harder pinions and lubing them?

1 Like

Yes, the harder pinion and a bit of lube before every session seems to have solved it.

The rear vesc was also changed for a new one (well the old one blew up when I was trying to get hall sensors working). Maybe the new vesc and a fresh reconfiguration could have also did something, shouldn’t have done but no idea.

1 Like

Congrats! This is a bonkers accomplishment

3 Likes

@Dinnye thoughts…?

2 Likes

Probably too overkill :sweat_smile: and it’s huge and heavy not to mention expensive.

Actually I had quite a bit going on recently, just need to find some time to update this thread with some stuff. For example that I have 2 G300s coming.

Had a lot of non esk8 stuff going on too so I’ll probably finish this season without much more spending on the board than the already on the way rear escs. Some car stuff and moving takes priority. Once that’s done I’ll turn my attention back to esk8 and get at least the chassis/ tabless battery combo done before the next racing season starts up. The rest - motors, new custom gearing, front ESCs - will probably take even more time as it will be ridiculously expensive to replace all that.

3 Likes

So it’s been a few very busy months for me but I finally have time to start to catch up the build thread.

Back to late June I went to Pardubice for a race with high expectations and hope for a gold medal. I finished 2nd with crazy overheating issues. I even had to skip a heat because the battery was empty and I couldn’t charge it because it was 80c+. The rear D100S was thermal throttling I could feel that. And the motors I couldn’t touch even for a very brief moment, it immediately felt like burning my finger.

PS: lifting that board above my head for the picture was a huge challenge.

Here’s a video from heat 3:

Unfortunately my camera mount broke before the challenge race (head to head) started, and I didn’t fix it since then. There was no position change in the head to head race, just 5 consecutive laps, so not much action.

I also realized during the event that I was running way higher pressure than ideal so I lowered it down. I was getting them well up to temperature:

I was a little low on pressure here but didn’t bother to fix until later. The ideal pressure as I later found out is around 0.45 bar cold for my weight and style.

The inner shoulder of the tire however does work harder than the rest, which is not good, means that I have significantly shorter life out of a tire than what would be possible. Though to extend that I’d need camber in the hanger which is something that noone has done before to my knowledge, and it does sound expensive to manufacture. I still get a long enough life out of them though. Just had the first set changed out now.


Wheel aligment and camber:

Wear on the inside of the wheel means I need positive camber. Wear on the outside of the wheel means I need negative camber. Even wear would mean I don’t need camber.

I made a drawing to explain riding styles and how they influence wheel alignment issues. This is mostly my intuition so this might be mostly bullshit but from my tire wear it would make sense to try positive camber, that I am confident in.

When you are turning, you need to lean between two specific lean angles so that you don’t slide out or fall. Orange angle is the minimum lean angle you need and green is the maximum lean angle that you can do before you slide out. Between these two extremes you can be anywhere and you are technically good. Being in exactly the middle requires no camber, and causes more or less even tire wear, but then you can’t really feel how close you are to the edge of grip. Yellow means the outside of your tires wear more, and it’s overall less tiring to ride like that, but it (in my opinion) gives less precise feedback and (in my opinion) makes sliding less predictable. Green is my riding style, the tires wear more on the inside. I feel like it gives more precise feedback, but it’s more tiring overall. Super steep lean angles also look more entertaining. But I know some people who wear the outsides of their tires more, so this confirms it for me that wear pattern depends on riding style.

Regarding pressure: the further under I am from the ideal pressure range the more important camber becomes. For this tire I found predictability to be the best at pressures lower than the tire was designed for, which means I won’t ever have “perfect” wear and even pressure over the full contact patch. But it can be significantly better than it is now with some camber. At least wear definitely, ride feel, I’d have to try and see if there’s any difference.

7 Likes

On the way to back to Hungary for a summer holiday I stopped by in Prague for a Kartplanet session. In the beginning the track was damp so I was running the mtb on the 9x3.5 slicks. Was horrifying when the tires weren’t up to temp and when I crossed a wet patch. The kart wheels are so much more predictable on the edge of grip.

But that dried the track up enough so that I could take the raceboard out too in the end. No PB this time though, as the freshly dried track wasn’t really rubbered up from the karts and had pretty bad grip still. I was a little mad that I was still holding my PB on lawnmower tires :sweat_smile: but that was in much better conditions. In good conditions the 9x3.5 were actually pretty great on this track.

Then in Hungary we setup the xerace Budapest track in August to test the layout I designed.

I also had a fall. Didn’t hurt at all but made my replace the leathers.

Remote related issues are the worst. I leant back as I was pulling the brakes anticipating the brakes the come on, and well, having 80% of my weight on my back foot at 60 km/h causes a wobble if the brakes don’t come on. Who could’ve guessed that.

I am suspecting that the issue is just that the wiring of the receiver is half broken near one of the connectors, which would be an easy repair but I just pulled the whole thing out and put another gt2e in with it’s own receiver. Maybe I’ll fix it one day and test on a low power board.

Then on the way back to Denmark I again stopped at Kartplanet and this time I made a (slight) PB, but I’m still position 4 on the leaderboard. Grip wasn’t awesome but weren’t too bad either this time, but I suspect the surface there is not rough enough for my tires to perform at their optimum.

2 Likes

Then three weeks ago I drove out to @esk8cave for a grid session.

We started with a modified layout as some cars were in the way.

Once the cars left we setup the real layout and I made these times with a pretty much empty battery. It was enough for 4th place on the leaderboard. Hopefully I’ll have the opportunity to get some times with a full battery in the near future, I am expecting a sizeable jump. Hoping for sub 20.

3 Likes

Just leaning back into wobbles.. that feels crazy to think about.

glad you’re ok.

1 Like

Next thing was the Budapest Xerace.

Before the race I finally wired up the lipos @sugandese left with me into a 20s1p config. These keep cool even during racing. Interestingly the 10AWG wires coming off the lipos were pretty damn hot after each run though. Significantly warmer than the lipos themselves.

Following the recommendation of @fessyfoo I got some of these yeti 8mm antispark bullets and these work wonders for 20S.

Some ride footage from the race:

It was a rough day for BRPs. Hendrik and David were fighting with failing tires, and they had less grip too. Also cracks and unevenness were a much larger issue for BRPs, and given that this wasn’t a perfect surface, that also played some factor (though the surface wasn’t that bad).

It was also my first ever victory. Excuse the poor quality screenshot, don’t have an actual podium photo on hand.

I also had a healthy margin by the end:

And the fastest laptime by over a second

Then the next day we explored a local kart track who were kind enough to let us ride for a very cheap price

It was a fun layout but the surface was a little slippery. Got better as the asphalt warmed up and the dust cleared off. This lap is still an early lap, did 27.97 later on as grip improved significantly.

Maybe we will organize something here also next year.

4 Likes

Glad to see you finally getting some use from them and some success too! Did you find you had to lower your voltage cuts much? How did they perform sag and run time wise?

1 Like

I also finally figured out a way to make the swingarm part with sheet metal and redesigned the chassis.

It fits 2x 2G300 (I already have one on the way, will get a second one later down the line as budget allows). And it’s designed to swallow a 21S5P double stack 3 cell wide 21700 battery pack in it’s belly. Current top contender would be EVE 50PL but things might change by the time I get to this.

I also dipped my toes into FEA. For a fixed face BC around the mounting holes and total 1200N force (120kg rider) distributed over 4 points that roughly cover the expected foot position, there’s a 0.4mm deformation in the chassis and the hotspot has 2.9e7 Pa stress, 6061 alu yields at 2.8e8 Pa thus there’s a safety factor of around 10. And the simulation was only run for the unibody chassis part, the bellypan and the deck on top will increase strength further.

There’s still a bunch of work to be done, try and reduce weight, confirm the mechanics work, finetune stuff, run more FEA, confirm sizing and strength of all fasteners bearings etc. Cost is looking like it’ll be significantly more than the first design which was a single steel sheet. I’m expecting just over 1k$ in cost for a oneoff order… Plus some extra drilling and tapping that I’ll have to do myself.

More details about this will follow over time. But I’m seriously considering shelving the project for a bit and saving up for a cheap CNC mill…

This one’s capable enough for making small alu parts but would run close to 2k until it’s ready. I’m a quick learner but a mill is a big project, would definitely cause some delay for the board, but could make parts for it and pay itself off probably by the time the board would be finished…

6 Likes

I’m running the same cutoffs still, yet to change them. But since the liion pack was 21S and I had conservative cutoffs set and this is 20s it’s not too far off I think. I’m keeping an eye on the voltage manually during runs for now.

Range on track is about 12-13 km for the 800Wh lipo pack. Compared to 16 km of the 1300Wh P42A pack, of which the last 2-3km is severely reduced power but still enough power to be fun. Makes for an opportunity to practice smoothness and precision. On the lipos I am starting to feel sag around 3.75-3.8 but by that point most of the energy is emptied out from the battery. That’s roughly when I charge too. On the P42A pack I was feeling sag from around 3.95-4V, but that’s liion so it’s at a much higher SOC. Definitely less sag with the lipo.

But the lipos need attention, a liion pack that can do the power I need would be preferable. The EVE 50PL should be way more capable than the P42A, and I’d be adding an extra P group so with those I’d have both the performance I need and the more stable chemistry.

2 Likes

I only discharge to 3.8 but my first cut I set at 2.8 expecting a lot of sag. Quite good really that those lipos can supply that much power and range in 1p.

2 Likes

Yeah I was stopping 3.7-3.75 too, didn’t go deeper than that. Most of the time I was topping up earlier.

I was very surprised by the amount of range they gave on track. Nearly as much as the 1.6x as many Wh P42A pack is crazy.

1 Like

I ran a 21s6p P45b (supposedly a lil bit better than P42a) and I’m only getting like half the range I’m suppose to get while not pulling that many amps (140A motor and 70A battery per side). I only hit these settings if I do launches.

1 Like