Vote Option 1: I own Cloudwheels or clones but I won’t be riding on them because I don’t want to take the risk of an injury now, with the state of Covid, it is probably the worst time to have to go to the hospital for a skateboard injury. Like if you agree.
versus . . .
Vote Option 2: I own Cloudwheels or clones and I’m going to keep riding them. Like if you agree.
These poll questions could probably be written to introduce a little less bias lol.
Checked my Cloudwheels, and they’re good to go, zero cracks or others issues that I can see at the moment. Given the small sample of problem wheels at the moment, I’d like to hear more from iWonder before passing judgment - good that they’re looking into this at their factory though.
Does anyone with experience in manufacturing in this space know what is generally considered an acceptable failure rate? We have three or four problem wheels (that we know of) out of approximately 15,000 units produced. Is that still within the “acceptable” range?
Which way are you looking at this? As a performance product, failure rate needs to as close to 0 as possible. If we were looking at this as if it is something made for racing etc. As a mass produced accessory, as close to 0% within the warranty period. After that who cares. Generally for cheap things meant to be replaced, they may calculate failure up to 5% to be replaced during the warranty period.
For something like this, the statistics are not nearly big enough to make a decent calculation. How many of the 15,000 units are sitting on a shelf? How many got installed and never used? How many went through their whole lifespan with no cracks? Did any of the wheels that failed may have been abused/external causes by other factors? It’s just speculation at this point and not enough data to throw out percentage numbers.
Actually, I tried to make the questions comically biased towards not riding – because I suspected the voters would skew towards “gonna keep riding no matter how high the risk or defect rate”.
Notice that the vote is so far 7:1 in favor of contiuing to ride.
Its an outcome that is consistent with the majority of comments. No matter how high the defect rate appears (8% within the sample size of this forum) most riders in this thread would rather fill the spokes with epoxy than stop riding on them.
Even when some published third party research suggests the i-wonder cores are up to 5x weaker than conventional wheel cores, most riders still seem to think riding on them is worth the risk.
I guess that means these wheels must be really comfortable. It makes no sense to me. But I do find it facinating.
i think comparative numbers are useful. how many cracked kegel cores are out there? how many warranty claims has @torqueboards faced (regardless if the claims were approved or denied)?
I think the only comparison that can be done is against abec 107s. Comparing different designs is not a fair analysis, as the kegal cores, intentionally or not, happens to be a good design for bolts going through, where as the abec, being a much more aesthetically pleasing and refined design (subject to opinion), is really only good for press-fit style pulleys, and as unfair as it is to say, if a bolt on pulley was used with an abec style core, I would consider that core externally damaged.
that’s a great point, so maybe we should exclude foamy failures that involved the use of bolt on pulleys. the failures of cores that have never seen a pulley worry me though
You’re wrong here. There is yet conclusive evidence that these cores are failing at this percentage under regular use, for me at least. I would consider these cores defective under 3 conditions: 1) failure occurs within 12 months of use (their warranty period) 2) failure occurs with no external “modifications”, this includes bolt on pulleys and switching bearings 3) failure not from extreme usage, i.e. offroading, hitting curbs/potholes, excessively hot or cold climate, broken/not freely spinning bearings, cleaning with solvents corrosive to that plastic, etc.
From what I’ve seen with the failure and what I know about those plastics, I believe the chances that the wheel will catastrophically explode on me one random day while riding is absolutely negligible. So I will keep riding them and inspecting them frequently.
Just because we’re used to over designed does not mean these are “defective”. Driving around in a truck and driving it on and off curbs every day may feel like the norm after awhile, then one day you get into a honda civic and drive it up the curb and it cracks a suspension arm and you go what a piece of shit, but no.
ABEC 11 has a history in downhill racing, as does many wheel manufacturers. iwonder came into the market on exway level, it would be unwise to mistake this as the same performance race wheels that everyone has adapted before.
Hey Bill:
Very early in this thread you complained about one or more of these wheels wobbling. First you blamed the manufacturer. Then you blamed yourself. Did you ever figure our what happened or get the wheel to run true?
Here is why I ask. I notice that the eskate-builders forum has gone inoperable. I guess Jason Potter has no reason to pay the monthly fees. Who would blame him for wanting to move on.
But while that forum was operational, there was a thread on “MSB wheel wobble”.
Three different posters complained of the problem. One of them posted this picture.
I did a little editing to copy the picture twice and add a red circle.
The fellow who posted the original picture asked if the thin white radial line at the top of the bearing compartment is a crack in the plastic. I think it is. Anyway, it got me thinking that this type of crack would cause a wobble. The weaker plastic near the crack would allow the bearing compartment to streach from circular into an oval. The wobble would be even more distinct if this type of crack were present on both sides of the wheel, especially if two cracks were in the 180 degree position relative to each other.
So, here is my question? Do you still have the wobbly wheel? If you do can you find hairline cracks on the bearing compartment – like the one in the picture?
If so then wobbly wheels might be an early warning sign that could signal a rider between inspections (or if cracks are overlooked on inspection). Tiny cracks like these could be pretty hard to see without a bright light and removing the wheel to inspect both sides of the wheel.
I’m thinking that it could be very helpful to have some way to detect an impending failure in the middle of a ride, between inspections.
Presumably the manufacturer would also want to have an early warning signal so that customers can ask for replacements prior to an injury.
Yup we just don’t know yet. I saw someone pushing an 8% figure, but that’s outlandish given how little data we have.
Still curious though about what’s considered an “acceptable” defective rate for this kind of manufacturing. I get the aspiration is zero, but this is ultimately a mass-produced item so like any other part, there will be duds that make it through the assembly line. That up to 5% you mentioned is interesting. Sounds high to me but I wouldn’t be surprised.
Really, I’m surprised people think its an outrageous number. It happens to be the actual number inside this thread. With 4 failures and what looks like 53 customers, that’s 8%.
All of those failures were within 6 months of purchase and most were within 2 months. Based on the prematurity of the failures, it would be very reasonable to multiply the 8% a few times to estimate the full year failure rate.
One rider was injured. His wheel fell apart at speed. In that context, do the following statements make sense…
When I buy a critical component that my life depends upon while traveling at 30 or 40 kph. I’m looking for something that will be safe and reliable for years.
Why would anyone think that the failure rate would be as low as 1% as suggested by @jeffwuneo or 0.1% as suggested by @BluPenguin. What are those estimates based on? Hope?
Clearly these wheel cores are experiencing cracks that would never occur on an orangutang or TB or any other wheel where the manufacturer made the correct material choices. The cores are made from un-reinforced plastic. I don’t believe any other manufacturer of reputable products has made that choice.
And speaking of the manufacturer, is there a reason that they are not responding on this thread? Does that instill confidence? Where is the plan to make improvements to the manufacturing method, molds and material choices. Where is the program to notify customers of a problem and to describe the need for regular inspections. Where is the warning that the plastic is not suitable for cold weather.
Does the manufacture’s silence on any one of these things support the idea that the expected failure rate is likely down around .1%.
Just because they choosing one material does not mean it not possible for problem friend.
Nylon+GF can breaking with hard impact. No material is perfect. Nylon+gf is also easy to warping from mould if proper cooling is not use. Problem may not be just for material. These core use on these 100mm+ wheel is never design for use in wheel this size and have potential for delaminate.
This wheel from TB have core put in backward from what I reading. So is very possible for any manufacture to have problem no matter where is made.
This is skateboard wheel and is not critical item to manufacturer.
The fk? Do you understand statistics and sampling? From looking at this forum, I would say 100% of people ride eskate… Now that’s just dumb isn’t it?
I hope you replace your car tires at the manufacture rated interval. Everything has a lifespan, if you buy something meant to last x long and you take it to y, failure is to be expected.
You compare a manufacture who does DH racing products to one that makes cruiser electric wheels. If you push a honda civic like a lemans 24 race car, do you expect it to break or nah?
We’re a small group of people compare to their mass market. They probably make more wheels in a day than our total head count.
These things are untested speculations by forum members. They posted to their website, you want them to post untested theories too?
Think at this point, if the word continues to spread, the manufacturers and resellers are probably thinking, screw it, easier to sell drugs. After all that hard earned investment sunk into R&D, supply and manufacture, down the drain… all investments are risky, except toilet paper.
It’s not. In many mass manufactured products, the cost of the product includes the expected number of failures and warranty costs. If cutting half the cost meant going from 1% to 5% failure, this is a plus, because your increased profit margin is higher than your spoilage loss.
I was part of one. Where the raw cost of the part was dropped from $30 to a little over $5 a unit, being sold at $100 retail. Over 7% failed in the warranty period, yet it was still more profitable.
You need to think about how many people would buy this thing, and never even use it, or use it lightly. If power users account for only a fraction of your customer base, you can cut many costs on material and be better off.
Think about this wheel. Does it’s customer base look like your hardcore racer who’s going to be doing 100 foot slides? or the guy that rides an evolve or boosted 15mph down the boardwalk?
pk response I do understand statistic and it is reasonable to consider the “cloud Wheels Review thread” to include a random selection of cloud wheels customer. If it was the “Cloud Wheels problems threads” it would not be random. 53 customers = 212 wheels. That’s a 1.4% sample size. Also not unreasonable.
I hope you replace your car tires at the manufacture rated interval. Everything has a lifespan, if you buy something meant to last x long and you take it to y, failure is to be expected.
pk response So if its true that I-wonder advertised to thier customers that the I wonders have a minimum service life of 2 months and a maximum service life of one year then you have made an excellent point. I think most customers expect $120 wheels to last for many years.
You compare a manufacture who does DH racing products to one that makes cruiser electric wheels. If you push a honda civic like a lemans 24 race car, do you expect it to break or nah?
pk response I wonders are marketed to owners of electric skateboards. The vast majority of eskate’s are capable of speeds over 22 kph. A wheel failure at that even half that speed can be serious. There is no indication that any of the cracked i-wonders were used for down hill racing.
Oh yes. Completely random selection on the DIY esk8 forum. Boosted group riders where yall at?
Nailed it. you… expect… maybe change your expectations now.
It takes more than speed to stress a wheel. You can spin those cloud wheels at 60mph all day long. It’s rough riding and DIY things that stresses them. The better the rider the harder they are on their equipment. That’s the nature of it. Have you seen your average esk8 rider? Go find a boosted group ride next time.
@BluPenguin
So i’m saying that based on at least 4 examples of plastic failures that the unreinforced PC/ABS composition seems inadequate for the list of products that I-wonder is recommending as compatible. From their web site…here is the list of recommended fits:
EVOLVE: All models with street setup and ABEC core
BOOSTED: Fit all V2&V3 boards with the IWONDER conversion kit PJ006S Mini board Requires IWONDER conversion kit PJ006M
OWNBOARD: Compatible with W2,Bamboo & Carbon+Clone Brands,M1 Mini board Requires IWONDER kit PJ006R(6mm riser pads X2 and 50mm truck bolts X8)
SLICK REVOLUTION: Compatible with all models,Urban Kick Requires IWONDER kit PJ006R(6mm riser pads X2 and 50mm truck bolts X8)
METROBOARD: Compatible with all ABEC core models
EXWAY: Riot belt drive with EXWAY 6 star pulley only
VESTAR: Compatible with all ABEC core models,Mini belt motor Requires IWONDER Kit PJ006R(6mm riser pads X2 and 50mm truck bolts X8)
I believe the original wheels on all of the above products have Nylon+Glass fiber cores.
I think that Iwonder as a manufacturer of aftermarket replacements should be urged to recognize that their choice of plastic is poor and that matching the Nylon+Glass fiber composition of the original equipment wheels is the most sensible way to prevent future failures and injuries.
I think that thier current product is below industry standard and that they should manufacture to match industry standard if their product is an all terrain replacement wheel for the top brands of eskates.
But if you don’t feel what I think is credible, then perhaps you will find it more credible coming from this very clever contributor to the “problems with cloud wheels thread”…
I think you know him. He goes by the handle @BluPenguin
Its a brilliant and thoughtful post from someone who clearly understands that putting substandard strength wheels on some of the fastest electric longboards on the market is unwise.
The poster above really seems to understand the issue. Unlike this guy here who can’t seem to make a connection between wheel failure and injury and risk of death.
I-Wonder seems to have come up with a product that has characteristics that some of their customers enjoy. But if some of thier customers get injured or die, then it will be very bad for I-wonder. It would also be very bad for a fragile eskate industry. And of course it is worst for the rider and his family and loved ones.
I-wonder continues to look at this issue in a very unhealty way. They talk about this on their web site as just one failure. Its not. They perform some tests to try to prove that the material is strong. The material gets crushed in the test and they are happy with the outcome because it did not crack.
You seem to care about the company and the people who work there. If that is true and if you have a connection with them then push them hard to do the right thing. Ask them to change their web site to emphasize that these are hobby class wheels and that they are not recomended for high speeds, or rought roads and many other situations. Encourage them to urge customers to inspect the wheels regularly. Continue to encourage them to use materials that are of the same grade as the OEM wheels that they say that they can replace. If you can help the manufacturer to do the right thing then that is the best hope for thier future as a sucessful company. Its also the best hope for avoiding serious injuries on the long list of higher speed products that these wheels are beeing mounted on.
