Spot welding Copper / Copper Nickel / Copper Stainless Steel Sandwich

I opened the foot pedal from this one and compared it to the on i have on my kweld which has worked flawlessly for thousands of cycles and i think the issue is bounce. I thought it was a twich at first but i became very deliberate about the foot press and pressure after the second incident. Even with slow deliberate or quick snappy actuation i would occasionally get a double cycle. Im going to try swapping to my other foot pedal and see if the issue persists as im still only halfway through the welding process.

Only have so many spare cells if i get a blowout and this was the first time ive ever had to actually remove a cell during welding because of a mistake. After i was done cussing out the machine and updated my shorts i cleaned up my language and put my critique into words:

The welder is more than adequate to get the job done, but the lack of information and obfuscation of the welding details is a big pet peeve. Not having amps or time interval for the actual weld pulse is a huge drawback. It makes it unreliable to try and translate my settings from this machine into another or visa versa.

It also makes it harder to be consistent or to take the long history of welding experience and adapt it to the machine to help make the output of it more consistent and reliable. If i don’t have the amps over time i can’t tune the other parameters as skillfully. Gear is just not enough information. A chart that shows amps over pulse for each gear would at least help determine what machine is appropriate for what job without just guessing or trial and error. If i had that information i could determine even if i can’t control the ratio what machine would weld what combination of materials.

The cheap foot pedal (if that fixes the double pulse issue) is just salt in that wound. I assumed that if i set the ā€œcontinuous welding ā€œ timer it would be impossible to weld in a shorter interval but it seems to be happy welding as quickly as i press the button. I have the setting set to 2 seconds with the intention of preventing accidental double cycles but that’s not the result of increasing that setting. Likely it just is the timer for non foot pedal operation. If the new pedal fixes the issue then the included foot pedal is inadequate for all but the most hobby level of use. I need to be able to perform 1000s of welds constantly and accurately and accidentally double welding could easily accidentally ruin many hours of work as well as create a safety hazard. It’s borderline disqualifying. Modification of the foot pedal or an upgrade would be mandatory if it does end up as the source of the problem

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:100::100::100:

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The degree to which the heavy 4awg cables jump at the higher gears required to weld 0.2 and thicker copper under 0.1mm stainless still alarms me.

It is violent.

A magnet nearby will jump across the table, while the cell acts like it got hit hard by a light hammer and sparks might be flying too, depending on the material you are welding, its purity, cleanliness and the cleanliness of the electrode tips too.

My previous welder at near max power, could barely weld 0.1mm copper under 0.1mm nickel plated steel, and I upgraded 10awg cables to 8awg, but the violence of the welding pulse was nowhere near what My p20B can deliver.

I have no experience with a Kweld or its display, but I can see how that information can be quite useful in determining whether more, or less power is required, after tearing off a practice weld.

For the general AwithZ curious reader.. When using these AwithZ super capacitor welders, from the main options page one can choose:

  1. manual or automatic. Use the pedal to fire the pulse manually, or have it fire automatically after the chosen delay in option 5

  2. The duration of preheating. 0.00ms to 0.50ms. This in itself is pretty straight forward, but its effects on the subsequent weld are less so.

I wonder how much room temperature, and the temperature of the copper / nickel / Stainless steel strip and cell affect this preheating. How much does it affect the second weld after the first weld already warmed everything up?

I honestly have not been able to really determine much effect of changing the preheating duration, other than when I turn it off(0.00ms), I have to use a higher gear, and if I have it at 0.20ms the electrodes can seem to melt and deform at higher gears on thicker materials.

  1. Intermittent. 01ms to 20ms. This is the interval between the short sub millisecond preheating pulse, and the first welding pulse. It is not the interval between welding pulses, assuming one has chosen two or three of them in 5. Again I have not fully explored the full range of this option and was not seeing any obvious difference visually, or in the tear off strength between say 02ms and 05.

  2. Gear, pretty straightforward. Mine is 001 to 999. I assume it is pretty linear. It seems to be. It does seem if choosing just one weld pulse, this single pulse hits harder than the same gear with dual, or triple pulses, but that single pulse does not seem to hit twice or 3x as hard when using double and triple pulses, maybe 15% harder at most, in my estimation.

  3. Trigger time. 0.5 to 5 seconds. This only applies if the unit is set to automatic mode, and starts counting from when there is conductivity between electrodes. I only used automatic on my very few first test welds but was having issues getting the probes where I wanted them and at equal angle and pressure, so I went to the pedal and never looked back.

  4. Number of continuous spot welds. 1, 2, or 3. I have not played with triple welding pulses much. I have done a lot of single pulse, mostly double pulse, but in terms of tear off strength, I cannot subjectively tell much difference using the same gear and all the other settings.

    7. Interval Time of Continuous spot welding. 0.1 seconds to 2 seconds in 0.1second increments.

This is definitely the time interval between welding pulses, if one has chosen two or 3 pulses It has no effect if one chooses ā€˜Number of continuous spot welds 1’

I really think this Interval time should be on the main menu page and not hidden in the ā€˜settings’ menu. I guess it would not fit, so they threw it in the settings sub menu.

I think is bad and confusing design, is that in order to change the interval between the welding pulses, one has to go up into settings, scroll down past the language options, and often scroll through the language options to return it to English, then scroll down to 7. interval time of continuous spot welds.

I have been using 0.1 seconds for most of all my earlier testing above, but am using 0.2 seconds now. I have not fully explored the effects of any longer of an interval, but I have changed it to 1 and 2 seconds and find that delay when holding the electrodes there at the same pressure and waiting for that second pulse, to be a bit nerve wracking, after being used to 0.1 and 0.2 seconds

This a huge amount of variables to dial in, and small changes the effects are so subtle, that the only option which seems to have an effect on the result, is the Gear.

In many ways eliminating preheating by setting it to 0.00ms, and setting it to just 1 welding pulse, removes all the variables other than ā€˜gear’, the pressure one uses, and the size and shape of the tips, and their length, when they are worn.

The option of choosing a preheating pulse, its duration, and the ā€˜intermittent’ interval between the preheating pulse and the first weld pulse , as well as the interval between welding pulses, assuming one has chosen 2 or 3 pulses, is a shitton of variables.

Fine tuning these bells and whistles in order to achieve a solid weld with the least amount of cell heating, is a bit mind boggling, especially when the vague and poorly translated directions do not say what the effects of changing these variables is.

Changing more than one variable at a time is self defeating, as the pressure one uses on the electrodes, is hardly objective and repeatable, precise and accurate, and the shape of the electrode tips is constantly changing as well.

I only welded 0.15mm pure nickel a few times with my old ā€˜purple’ spot welder, and was determined to use copper, and found I could only use 0.1 copper under 0.1 nickel plated steel, and at near max power, and consistency was difficult, and more so as the weld lipo aged.

The AwithZ P20B is a luxurious powerhouse in comparison, and I feed spoiled in that I have plenty of flux, know I can use far less power to weld 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless, but just turn up the power a bit more.

Pecos, I am happy to see that you are achieving good looking welds using 0.3mm copper with flux, no sandwich. A 20s5P Reliance RS50 made from 0.3 copper is going to be a beast of an Esk8 battery.

I am dismayed that you find the unit frustrating and that your Pedal seems to be faulty, and I hope it is the pedal, and not the welder itself.

I have found all the available variables possible to be frustrating, and often just want to turn them off and just turn up the gear till the weld sticks, the copper tears, and call it good.

I also love me a potentiometer, and seeing pictures and videos of a Kweld in operation soothed my potentiometer twiddling nature. I hate scrolling push button menus, and repeatedly pressing buttons and beeping and more buttons, and nothing telling me voltage or amperage or wattage.

I have built several batteries, small ones, not esk8 batteries so far, using my AwithZ p20b. I have an Eve40PL 10s1P all fishpapered up and glued together into two 5s1p’s , but honestly want more practice, and possibly 0.25mm pure copper, or 0.3mm before committing to finishing it.

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Hey @Battery_Mooch

In this thread we have discussed the resistance of spot welds / Spot welded strips a few times, and you offered to test.

18650battery store is still out of empty test cells, and I cant seem to find anything similar online.

I have some new Cells that Nelvick gifted me, that I am unlikely to employ anytime soon, and am willing to donate for science, if you are willing.

I have:

2 Tenpower 50ME

2 DMEGC 30P

I am willing to weld strips to these cells and send them to you to test the resistance of the spot weld with your precision equipment, if you are willing, and have the time, and if 4 cells is enough to be worth it.

I was thinking about welding 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm stainless steel on one cell using flux, and the same sandwich on another not using flux.

I am also curious about the 0.5mm Stainless I experimented with, when it was the only stainless steel I had. The strength required to tear off 0.5mm stainless atop 0.2 copper was extreme, and the copper seemed to be pressed super flat, with a super wide footprint adjacent to the welds.

I am not sure if this is a big enough sample size or whether the natural variance in resistance of the cells will throw off the results or what methodology should be used.

If you are willing, should I weld strips to only have the anode and cathode so you can get probes on the other side.

I also have 0.15 pure nickel, 0,1 and 0.15mm copper, 0.1mm stainless steel and 0.07mm stainless steel and 0.5mm stainless steel.

I am willing to discuss the methodology here, or in a dedicated thread for this topic.

If you or someone else wants to start a Wiki/ dedicated thread I’d be glad to contribute, or we can continue it here, or I can start a new thread.

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im not frustrated so much as being critical. inconsistency is the bane of repetitive processes, and welding like this is a lot of cycles. I have a personal vendetta against ip being protected through obfuscation over usability, longevity, and serviceability, it leaks into my perspective on other things like this welder even if the intention was likely not to hide anything from the user but likely was just to simplify the use of the tool. I’m going to swap pedals today and do some more testing and try to not rant about so many other things here lol. deleted a paragraph or two on the philosophy of collaborative projects and societies based on good faith efforts.

I’m in a contrary mood and its bubbling over into everything else lately lol so i deleted my off topic rant like twice here because omfg im just generally pissed at a lot of things going on in the usa lately :rofl: i will just say (edited again omfg shut up me) no i wont just say

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I was curious about the inner workings of my pedal.

Couldn’t be more basic.

I didn’t want to pry the switch itself apart, and resisted the urge to spray some Caig Deoxit D5, G5, or f5in there.

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the micro switches come in such a huge range of specs, the one in the kweld seems more robust and i forgot to take a pic of it when i was comparing the two. ill snap a pic and do the swap testing but it might be good to just get a more reliable micro switch that is in the same form factor as the existing one to swap so i can still have two pedals… ill report back.

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New Pedal is on the way.

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Excellent, thanks!

Four is enough (2 x 2) I think to give us an idea of the possible variability of weld resistance. If they all test close together then we know the sample size can be small. If the numbers are all over the place then we’ll have to see how far we want to go with the number of cells (for each weld config) we test.

The metals, weld strengths, number of welds etc., I’ll leave up to the folks here to finalize.

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I am a bit confused as , I don’t know how your micro Ohm resistance tester works.

What I am imagining, is that one probe goes on the cell negative, the nickel plated steel can itself, the other probe on the end of the welded strip, whether it be copper or pure Nickel.

So it seems there would need to be room on the cell negative, onto which to place the resistor tester’s probe outside the welded strip.

The other way my brain has attempted to grasp this is by measuring the cell resistance outside the welded strips, then measure the cell resistance through the welded strips, and do some math and average out the resistance of each spot weld.

I don’t want the cells to arrive, and you open up the box and be like:

ā€˜WTF/ how am I supposed to test this with any precision? How Dumb is this MF??’

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Here’s a quick mock-up…

The two clips are connected to each other and the reading zeroed out.

One clip goes on the strip, whatever standard distance we use from the center of the cell.

The other clip touches the cell’s can (both tips must touch). It can also touch the side wall, just above the bottom of the cell as the resistance difference will be tiny. The distance can also be a standard amount we choose, 3mm or whatever, to equalize that parasitic resistance for all readings.

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Very helpful photo, thank you.

I assume you can grab one of the cathode vent bridges with that clamp, and the test cells can have strips welded on both ends?

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Kinda offtopic but I saw this and thought about this thread.

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That is great to be able to objectively state how much force is required to tear off a spot weld.

But often we are not breaking the weld but the material immediately adjacent to it, and once it starts tearing, when rolling it off, the force required decreases quickly.

I am also not sure how important peel off strength is, when pulling at 90 degrees to the cell, when it seems in battery builds all the stress will be at near 180 degrees, like a rigid flatpack in a flexible skateboard deck.

When rolling off the spot welds, trying to not deform the cell can, the shape and size of the needle nose pliers has a huge effect on when the material starts tearing at the edge of the weld, unless the weld is so weak the material just pops off leaving little behind of the cell.

I have welded mostly using sandwich, first trying pure nickel then realizing my old cheap purple pcb welder did not have enough power to do 0.15mm pure nickel on 0.1mm copper, and certainly not enough power to do 0.1mm copper without a sandwich. When I switched to 0.1 nickel plated steel I was suddenly getting very strong welds, in terms of tear off strength.

Now I have enough power to weld pure copper without sandwich or flux, and I think I should perhaps compare 0.15 pure nickel to 0.15 pure copper with as much objectivity as i can muster without a jig and device to actually start tearing the material adjacent to the welds.

The Stainless steel sandwich really seems to impart a huge increase in tear off strength to the material, and when I tongue in cheek tried the 0.5mm stainless on top of copper, I was rather amazed at just how difficult it was to remove the layers, and then the copper seemed to be adhered to the cell well away from the spot weld itself, more so than any other weld I tried.

If just a single spot weld, two dots using thick stainless is stronger, and also has less resistance because the copper adjacent to the welds is in direct contact, to perhaps ā€˜soldered’ because of the flux, then the possibility exists that less welds can be stronger, and more effective in terms of lesser electrical resistance.

I am very interested in Mooch’s results as I am definitely sending a cell welded with 0.2mm copper under 0.5mm stainless steel, using the flux.

I don’t have anything between 0.1 and 0.5mm stainless but if this does prove to be lower resistance than say 0.2 copper under 0.1 stainless, then there should be a happy middle ground which does not add 1mm+ to the length of each cell.

I cannot tell for sure but it also seems that a weld with 0.1mm Stainless steel seems stronger than 0.1 nickel plated steel, and also requires less welder power to achieve that greater strength.

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Good points!

Another possible concern is the placement of the welds in relation to the roll-off direction. Engaging a single weld at a time when rolling will give different results than hitting two or three welds at a time from a different direction (or weld placement).

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I am building a 1s4P Eve 58E for a friend’s BT speaker, which I will mail to him before the end of the week, and would like to send Mooch some batteries at the same time when I goto the post office.

I am still trying to decide what would be the best combinations to send to mooch for testing of spot weld resistance, and would like some input.

I am thinking 0.2 copper under 0.1mm stainless. One cell with flux anode and cathode both, one cell without flux, 4 dots each side, even though it seems most do at least 6 dots on the can.

I am personally very interested in seeing the effects of the 0.5mm stainless on 0.2mm copper, with Flux.

The stainless seemed to just press and bond the copper so flat to the cell well away from the edge of the electrodes, and had such tremendous tear off strength, I hypothesize that perhaps it is possible to have a stronger lower resistance weld with just a single pair of dots. Less time required to weld, and less heat entering the cell? if this proves to be right then can experiment with different thickensses of stainless which might still weld/solder the copper to the cell nice and flat and wide

I do not have any 0.2mm pure nickel, but I do have 0.15mm pure nickel, and 0.15mm copper.

I can try to do a cell with 0.15mm copper, no flux, no sandwich, and one with 0.15mm nickel, and then perhaps get a more even comparison copper vs Nickel.

This seems to use up all 4 cells I have for this testing.

It seems the cell resistance itself is not part of the equation for this test, but having virgin cells for welding is needed, as previous welds would anneal the can and removal of old welds will introduce other variables as well since the nickel plating is removed to some degree depending on the tool and methods used.

I only have the 4 cells I can donate to the cause at this time.

If 0.15mm nickel and 0.15mm copper no sandwich and no flux are a desired comparison I will need to experiment to figure out the welder settings, and I am basically out of cells on which to test to figure out the settings.

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I am currently testing 0.2mm copper under 0.1mm Stainless(304) using flux, and taking notes, not pictures.

I am testing this on a virgin EVE 40PL, with my AwithZ P20B welder.

My Electrode tips are pretty new, meaning they have not yet grown in circumference significantly yet, as they will, when they wear.

Cathode weld

Gear 333

Preheat 0.15ms

Intermittent(delay between preheating pulse and first weld pulse): 04ms

Interval between the 2 welding pulses 0.2 seconds

With Flux

Impression: Strong, but one copper weld dot stuck to cell wider and stronger than the other.

Stainless detached from copper more easily than desired, and tiny holes in stainless not even either.

Copper tinned in immediate area of welds but tinning not ā€˜connected’ between welds, and not symmetrically sized.

More power needed…..

Next weld

Raised gear from 333, to Gear 363, all other variables the same.

Much more even. Copper dots stuck to can with wider footprint, nearly equal. Nearly same tinning on copper, nearly same size holes in detached stainless.
Needs slightly more power. Recommend gear 370 to 375 minimum.

Switch to welding on Anode.

Same settings same as above, same sandwich, but Gear 373.

Nearly perfect tear, both copper dots same size within 5%.

Holes in detached Stainless within 15% of each other.

Tinning on removed copper strip equal, but not bridging welds.

Slightly more power needed.

Bump Gear to 385. Nearly perfect symmetry on the welds. Stainless popped off copper first but equal size holes in stainless and copper dots left on cell appear exactly the same size. Very strong and symmetrical welds.

So:

Eve 40PL. 0.2mm copper, 0.1mm stainless steel, with Flux.

Ambient 23.8C/ 75F

Recommend gear 385 as absolute minimum power for Anode

Recommend gear 375 as absolute minimum on Cathode.

0.15ms preheat, 04ms intermittent, double pulse, 0.2 second interval between weld pulses, with generous flux application. Electrode tips pretty new and narrow. As they fatten with wear, more power will be needed.

I’m gonna weld tabs to my EVE 40PL 10S1P now., I am confident in these setting as the minimum and will adjust upwards according to feel as electrode tips wear and welder heats up.

I have not yet welded up the cells to send to Mooch to test resistance of the welds.

Was hoping for a little input on what I should weld, and send to test for resistance, but I guess either there is little interest, or my judgement is trusted enough that no input is needed.

I wont kid myself about the latter.

The 1S4P Eve 58E for my Friend’s bluetooth speaker, has been built, and is ready to be mailed, and I want to only Visit the Post office once.

I did not tear off the 0.2mm strips on the Eve 58E. There will be no almost physical stress on the welds in this application. I did use flux and gear 343, but wound up lowering this to 320 on the Cathode when I moved the electrodes closer together to fit 6 dots.

Seems we never have mentioned the distance between the electrode tips, but the further apart they are the more power is needed, and the closer they are the less power is needed.

I think this is a variable with not enough mention, and perhaps those with welders of limited ability and which are not quite powerful enough, this can be another trick to perhaps achieve solid welds. Get the electrodes close, but make sure they do not touch before hitting the pedal.

I am not welding across any slots cut in either copper or stainless which will also lower the power required.

I will be avoiding the center 6mm spiral on my Eve 40PL’s, but will not be welding with electrodes on opposite sides of the spiral.

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There might be a bit of interest but most just don’t have the time (or desire) to read the ā€œintermediateā€ posts, especially the longer ones you and I write. They’ll just wait for a short summary when testing is over telling them what the ā€œbestā€ combination is.

For example, I might get a thousand or two views of a cell test report but the Recommended Batteries tables have over a million views.

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Was wondering if anyone from europe was lurking here that is using the copper spot welding paste?
I need to find a possible alternative supplier if diy500amp cant find a way.

I will need the paste with my P60F to weld 0.4 copper since diy500amp demonstrated it: (1) Can the AWithZ P60F Spot Weld 0.4mm Copper? Full Test with Stainless Steel & Flux - YouTube

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Send me your address at sales@diy500amp.com to make a quote.